Dr. Jay Michaelson

Mar 23, 2016 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dr. Jay Michaelson, a lawyer, rabbi, and meditation teacher, discusses balancing deep meditation practice, including experiences of "awakening," with an ambitious, engaged life. He explores the "path of insight" and its often-taboo stages, emphasizing that lasting transformation is the true goal.

At a Glance
34 Insights
52m 54s Duration
16 Topics
9 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Jay Michaelson's Diverse Background and Meditation Journey

Jay Michaelson's Unusual Motivation for Starting Meditation

Early Meditation Experiences and the Nature of Profound States

Defining Enlightenment Across Different Spiritual Traditions

The Possibility of Full Liberation and Uprooting Greed, Hatred, Delusion

Understanding the Theravadan Buddhist Path of Insight

Exploring the Concept of 'No-Self' and Visceral Understanding

Navigating the 'Dark Night' or Dukkha Nyanas in Intensive Practice

Distinguishing Secular Mindfulness from Deep End Meditation

The Taboo Around Discussing Personal Experiences of Nirvana and Stream Entry

Jay Michaelson's Personal Experience of Stream Entry and Its Impact

Reconciling Ambition and Engagement in the World with Spiritual Liberation

Embracing Pain and Suffering: Lessons from 'The Gate of Tears'

The Challenges of Attaining Deep Insight in Daily Life

The Rise of Pragmatic Dharma and Hardcore Meditators

How Contemplative Practice Could Contribute to a Better World

Greed, Fear, Delusion

In Buddhist psychology, these represent three fundamental types of people based on their primary motivations. Jay Michaelson identifies as a 'greed type,' driven by a desire for every possible experience, including spiritual ones, which is an unusual entry point for meditation.

Flow State/Peak Experience

These are moments of heightened clarity and crispness in perception, where the mind relates to things differently. Jay Michaelson explains that similar experiences of profound wonder, even with mundane objects like a string bean or paint bubbles, can be cultivated through a concentrated meditative mind.

Path of Insight

This is a map or sequence of stages the mind naturally progresses through during intensive Theravadan Buddhist meditation. It leads to intuitive knowledges, where one viscerally 'gets' certain truths, eventually enabling the mind to let go and experience liberation.

No-Self (Anatta)

A core Buddhist concept that there is no fixed, independent, or permanent 'self' or 'homunculus' driving actions. Instead, the 'self' is an emergent property of various causes and effects, and understanding this viscerally helps loosen the delusion of a controlling ego.

Dukkha Nyanas (Dark Night)

These are stages of insight in intensive meditation characterized by suffering, often occurring after a peak experience of 'arising and passing away.' Practitioners may feel dissociative or troubled as they grapple with the impermanence of perceptions, requiring guidance from a skilled teacher.

Nirvana

Described as a state of letting go or extinguishing the pattern of clinging and craving. It's not necessarily a blissful orgasm-like state but rather the mind's intuitive learning that it's possible to unplug from holding onto all formations (perceptions and thoughts), leading to liberation.

Stream Entry

The technical term for the first of four stages of enlightenment in Theravadan Buddhism, signifying that one has 'entered the stream' of the Dharma. It represents a qualitative, transformative shift in one's relationship to experience, making the state of non-seeking accessible.

Quietism

A concern in some mystical traditions, like Hasidic Judaism, that if one is constantly immersed in the divine or fully enlightened, there would be no motivation to engage in worldly actions or fulfill responsibilities to community and family.

Noble Friends and Conversations

One of the factors leading to awakening, as described in ancient Buddhist scriptures. It refers to having relationships and discussions with people who have genuinely practiced and experienced the path, providing lived experience and guidance.

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What motivated Jay Michaelson to start meditating?

Jay Michaelson was motivated by a 'greed type' desire for every possible experience, including wild, sensuous, and spiritual ones, rather than the more common motivation of reducing suffering.

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What kind of profound experiences can one have with a concentrated mind?

With a concentrated mind, mundane things like a string bean or paint bubbles can become vivid and profound, similar to flow states or peak experiences, as the mind relates to them in a different, clearer way.

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What is the ultimate goal of deep meditation practice?

The ultimate goal of deep meditation is lasting transformation of the mind, leading to stages where one becomes more compassionate, just, and suffers less, rather than merely having temporary peak experiences.

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Is 'enlightenment' a universal concept, and is it truly possible?

'Enlightenment' means different things in various traditions; in Dharma, it's about suffering less and letting go, which is considered possible and occurs in multiple stages rather than as an immediate, all-or-nothing event.

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How does the Theravadan Path of Insight work?

In intensive practice, the mind naturally progresses through a sequence of stages, developing intuitive knowledges about reality, such as cause and effect, which eventually enables it to let go and experience liberation.

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What does the Buddhist concept of 'no-self' mean, and how is it understood?

'No-self' means there is no fixed, independent self, but rather an emergent property of cause and effect. It is understood viscerally through practice, realizing that actions arise from numerous factors rather than a singular, controlling 'self'.

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What is the 'Dark Night' experience in meditation, and how serious is it?

The 'Dark Night' (Dukkha Nyanas) refers to stages of suffering that can arise after a peak experience in intensive meditation, where practitioners may feel dissociative or troubled. It requires a good teacher and personal resilience to navigate safely.

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Is deep meditation practice, including the 'Dark Night,' relevant for casual meditators?

Generally, these deep, challenging stages of practice only arise in intensive, long-term retreats, not typically for those meditating for short periods daily for stress reduction. Secular mindfulness usually avoids these profound states.

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Why is discussing personal experiences of 'stream entry' or 'nirvana' often considered taboo in meditation circles?

Historically, it was believed a truly enlightened being wouldn't boast, and in contemporary Western contexts, it's discouraged to prevent competitive comparisons among practitioners regarding their spiritual 'attainments'.

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How can one reconcile ambition and worldly success with the practice of letting go and liberation?

One can be 'in the world but not of the world,' wanting things but not feeling distraught if they aren't achieved. It's possible to see through phenomena while still engaging with and loving aspects of life and working for justice and compassion.

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Does deep meditation eliminate pain and suffering, such as grief?

No, deep meditation does not eliminate pain or suffering, nor would one necessarily want it to. Instead, it allows one to coexist with difficult feelings without being taken over by them, embracing the full range of human experience.

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What is the 'pragmatic Dharma' movement?

It's a small, niche community of 'hardcore' or 'hobbyist' meditators who re-embrace traditional maps of insight and discuss their progress more openly, often using online communities, contrasting with the more cautious approach of mainstream Western teachers.

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How could contemplative practice potentially 'save the world'?

By working on internal forces of greed, hatred, and delusion on an individual level, and then replicating that on a macro level, leading to a safer, less destructive world through increased wisdom and compassion.

1. Embrace Full Human Experience

Embrace the full range of human experience, including pain and sorrow, as an integral part of being alive, rather than trying to avoid difficult emotions. This approach allows for authentic relationships and profound engagement with life.

2. Coexist with Difficult Feelings

Practice being present with difficult emotions without being overwhelmed or taken over by them, allowing you to settle back and observe them with a slightly different relationship. This enables you to navigate challenges without being consumed by them.

3. Be the Sky, Not the Storm

Adopt a perspective where you are the spacious awareness (the sky) rather than identifying with the transient emotions and experiences (the storm). This allows you to witness joys and sorrows profoundly, like seasons of the year.

4. Don’t Take Ego Seriously

Recognize that the ego, which constantly seeks to run the show and achieve desires, is often the least competent part of the mind and can cause significant suffering. Learn not to take its demands and narratives too seriously.

5. Challenge Inadequacy Voice

When the inner voice of inadequacy arises, acknowledge its presence (‘oh, there’s that voice’) but avoid believing it or letting it dictate your self-worth. This helps to loosen its grip and reduce self-inflicted suffering.

6. Work on Internal Greed, Hatred

Actively work on your internal patterns of greed, hatred, and delusion, as this personal transformation can lead to a safer and less destructive world on a macro level. This is a ’think globally, act locally’ approach to societal improvement.

7. Cultivate Emotional Authenticity

Strive for authenticity in your emotional expression and relationships, as this enables deeper connection and understanding with others. Being true to your feelings fosters genuine human connection.

8. Train Mind to Suffer Less

Engage in Dharma traditions to train your mind to suffer less by holding on less and grabbing less at experiences and desires. This practice focuses on reducing attachment as a path to liberation.

9. Seek Lasting Mind Transformation

Understand that the true point of deep meditation practice is not temporary peak experiences but lasting transformation in the mind, leading to stages of greater happiness, justice, and compassion. Focus on these enduring changes rather than fleeting states.

10. Practice Over Theory

Recognize that understanding meditation is like a cookbook; you must actively ‘do it’ and engage in the practice to truly ’taste the dish’ and gain intuitive knowledge, rather than just reading about it. Visceral experience is key to genuine insight.

11. Move to Visceral Knowledge

Aim to shift your understanding from mere intellectual agreement to a visceral, intuitive ‘gut feeling’ about concepts like ’not-self’ or ‘cause and effect.’ This deeper knowing is the true point of practice.

12. Develop Concentrated Mind

Practice concentration to quiet the mind’s noise, enabling vivid experiences of mundane things and allowing you to perceive the wonder in every ordinary moment. This capacity is developed, not left to chance.

13. Observe Causes of Actions

Analyze the numerous factors and conditions that lead to your actions, rather than attributing them solely to a singular ‘self.’ This practice helps to intuitively understand the concept of ’not-self’ and loosen its delusion.

14. Observe Desires Without Acting

Practice observing desires, such as the urge to buy something, and recognize that you don’t always need to act on them. Acknowledge the desire and then move on, rather than being compelled by it.

15. Question Fear-Based Reactions

When fear arises in response to external events, observe it and question whether you need to listen to that fear or act on it immediately. This allows for a more considered and less reactive response.

16. Set Right Intention

Clearly establish your intention for your meditation practice, as having this ‘right intention’ is a fundamental and significant part of the path towards awakening.

17. Cultivate Noble Friends

Actively seek out and engage in conversations with ’noble friends’ – experienced practitioners who have done the work – to gain support, inspiration, and insights from their lived experience.

18. Seek a Competent Teacher

For those pursuing serious, deep meditation, find a competent teacher who can guide you through difficult stages and provide reassurance, preventing potential misinterpretations or distress.

19. Cultivate Personal Resilience

Develop personal resilience to navigate the challenging and sometimes uncomfortable phases of deep meditation practice. This inner strength is crucial for enduring the ‘dark night’ stages.

20. Normalize Difficult Stages

Understand that difficult experiences, often called ‘dukkha nyanas’ or ‘dark night,’ are a recognized and normal part of intensive practice, not a sign of a nervous breakdown. A good teacher can confirm this.

21. View Enlightenment as Slope

Understand that enlightenment or liberation is a gradual process, like a slope from the shallow to the deep end of a pool, with various stages, rather than an all-or-nothing, instantaneous jump.

22. Demystify Nirvana Experience

Approach nirvana not as a mystical, ultimate experience, but as a state of letting go, an ’extinguishing’ of clinging and craving. It is accessible with enough practice and can be demystified.

23. Truly Let Go of Liberation

Paradoxically, to achieve deeper liberation, you must genuinely let go of the desire for it, reaching a point where you truly don’t care if it happens. This non-seeking allows it to arise.

24. Commit to Intensive Practice

Recognize that achieving deeper states of liberation often requires a significant time commitment to intensive practice, similar to the dedication required to become a highly skilled athlete or musician.

25. Consider Unplugging for Deep Practice

If circumstances allow, consider taking extended periods to ‘unplug’ from daily life and engage in silent retreats for intensive practice, as this can facilitate deeper progress.

26. Understand Self as Emergent

Intellectually and viscerally grasp that the ‘self’ is an emergent property of the brain, a helpful process rather than a fixed reality, which helps loosen the delusion of a solid, independent self.

27. Use Meditation for Stress Reduction

Engage in meditation practice to alleviate suffering, reduce stress, and achieve incremental improvements in happiness and well-being. This is a common and effective entry point for many.

28. Focus on Practical Benefits

Utilize meditation for practical benefits in daily life, such as being happier, less angry with a spouse, or more effective with workmates, even if not pursuing ‘big enlightenment.’

29. Secular Mindfulness as Gateway

If interested in deeper contemplative practices, start with secular mindfulness as a ‘gateway drug’ to explore its benefits before potentially delving into more intensive paths.

30. Prepare for Deep Practice Difficulties

Be aware that ‘deep end’ meditation involves confronting difficult aspects of oneself and one’s mind, which can be challenging but is part of the transformative process.

31. Seek Inspiration from Advanced

Look to advanced practitioners who exhibit qualities like being ‘unstuck’ and grasping less, as their examples can inspire and guide your own practice.

32. Practice Letting Go of Formations

Intuitively learn that it’s possible to let go of ‘all formations’—everything you perceive and think—to ‘unplug’ from constant mental clinging.

33. Embrace Contemplative Practice

Engage in any form of contemplative practice (meditation, prayer, yoga) to personally experience its benefits, which can foster wisdom and compassion and have a real impact on the world.

34. Avoid Meditation for Awesome Experiences

Do not start meditation solely with the goal of having ‘awesome experiences,’ as this is considered a ‘bad reason’ and can lead to disappointment or misdirection from the true purpose of practice.

When I started out in contemplative practice, I was searching for the mountain on the edge of the world, enlightenment, the big joy, mystical union, the whole spiritual enchilada of love, wisdom, happiness, perfection.

Jay Michaelson

The doors of perception are cleansed and the world appears very different.

Jay Michaelson

As practice deepens, you realize that these experiences are not the point. You know, it's a little bit kind of a sideshow. And the real point is transformation that's lasting in the mind, not just states of mind, but stages of mind, that it's possible to become 10% happier, or 10% more just, or 10% more compassionate.

Jay Michaelson

The Buddha wasn't advertising, you know, incremental improvement. He was talking about, when he talked about enlightenment, although, as you point out in your book, he didn't use the word enlightenment. When he talked about awakening and liberation, he talked about the remainderless uprooting of greed, hatred, and delusion.

Dan Harris

It's one thing to sort of have somebody say something, and you read it, and you agree or disagree. It's another thing – you know, my word for viscerally is you get it in your kishkas, right, in your guts. Like it's really there, and you're like, oh, yeah, that. Yeah, okay. And you just sort of see it. That's the point of practice, right, to move from one kind of knowledge to another.

Jay Michaelson

Ram Dass said, if you think you're enlightenment, go spend some time with your parents.

Jay Michaelson

After the ecstasy, the laundry.

Jay Michaelson

You can be in the world but not be totally of the world, right? You can sort of want something but not feel as though your life is a mess if you don't get it.

Jay Michaelson

It's possible to coexist with difficult feelings without being taken over by them.

Jay Michaelson

Ultimately at the end of the day, you really have to – it's almost cruel. You just totally have to let go of it. And you can't fake it either.

Jay Michaelson
4
Stages of enlightenment in Theravadan Buddhist map With 16-18 mini-stages depending on how counted.
12
Stages of enlightenment in Tibetan Buddhist map Different traditions have different maps.
1-2 months
Estimated time to attain Stream Entry for a slow learner Refers to intensive practice, such as unplugging for a while.
2 hours
Dan Harris's daily meditation practice commitment A significant commitment that Jay Michaelson notes is more than he does.
At least one long retreat per year
Dan Harris's annual retreat commitment Committed with his wife's permission and collusion.
Four 3-hour sits per day
Jay Michaelson's intensive meditation sits during retreat Described as a lot of time and intensive practice.
25%
Jay Michaelson's estimate of his progress towards 'the enchilada' (full enlightenment) Meaning he is 75% not there, still captive by greed, hatred, and delusion.