Dr. Mark Epstein

Jun 22, 2016 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist psychiatrist and author, discusses the intersection of psychotherapy and Buddhism, exploring meditation's impact, the concept of "no-self," and the pursuit of enlightenment. He shares how juggling helped him grasp meditation's essence.

At a Glance
15 Insights
1h 8m Duration
15 Topics
5 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Dr. Mark Epstein and his influence

Mark Epstein's early journey into meditation and Buddhism

The unexpected breakthrough in meditation through juggling

Impact of over 40 years of meditation practice

Dr. Epstein's current approach to meditation

Understanding the Buddhist concept of 'no-self'

Personal experience of 'no-self' and indivisibility

Modesty and non-commercial approach to meditation

Comparing efficacy of psychotherapy and meditation

Critique and future of the mindfulness movement

Dan Harris's personal experience with meditation during crisis

Bare attention and the 'good enough parent' concept

Meditation and mindfulness in parenting

The elusive goal and definition of enlightenment

Theravadan vs. Mahayana Buddhism: Samsara and Nirvana

The Buddha's Diagnosis of the Human Condition

The Buddha's view is that humans are like 'furry little primates' constantly pursuing fleeting pleasant experiences in an impermanent universe. This insatiable pursuit of happiness, enshrined in founding documents, paradoxically becomes the source of unhappiness because satisfaction is never fully achieved.

No-Self (Selflessness)

This Buddhist concept suggests that the 'self' we take so seriously is not as 'really real' as we perceive it to be. It involves peeling away the endless, often subconscious, stories we tell ourselves about who we are, recognizing them as evanescent thoughts. The liberation comes from the 'not really knowing who you are,' rather than a literal non-existence.

Bare Attention (Mindfulness)

Defined as the clear and single-minded awareness of what happens to us and in us at successive moments of perception, it's like registering the raw data of experience. This meditative posture changes the psyche by not trying to change anything, allowing the mind's inherent potential to emerge naturally, similar to the steadiness of an attuned parent.

Good Enough Parent (Winnicott's Concept)

A concept from child psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott, describing an ordinary devoted mother or parent who doesn't intrude but also doesn't abandon in the face of a child's difficult emotions. Dr. Epstein correlates this attitude to the attention applied in mindfulness, suggesting it's a natural, biological inheritance that strengthens with practice.

Nirvana and Samsara (Mahayana Perspective)

In later Buddhist developments (Mahayana), nirvana and samsara are viewed as two faces of the same coin, rather than distinct states of suffering and escape. This perspective suggests that the underlying nature of reality, often perceived as suffering by a deluded mind, can be experienced as an 'orgasmic reality' within this world itself, not a separate realm.

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How did Dr. Mark Epstein first get into meditation and Buddhism?

He started meditating in his first or second year of college after reading the Dhammapada and working for Herbert Benson, who taught a method similar to Transcendental Meditation. He then met influential Buddhist teachers like Daniel Goleman, Joseph Goldstein, and Jack Kornfield at Naropa.

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What was a key breakthrough for Dr. Mark Epstein in his early meditation practice?

While at a Buddhist summer camp, he learned to juggle. He realized that to keep three oranges in the air, his mind had to relax, which helped him understand the non-cerebral, embodied approach to meditation.

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What impact has over 40 years of meditation had on Dr. Mark Epstein?

He describes it as providing a 'place of refuge' inside himself, a kind of timeless inner space. He feels it has given him inspiration and made him less anxious, though he doesn't claim to be perfected.

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How does Dr. Mark Epstein practice meditation now?

He no longer adheres to strict timings, meditating when time opens up in specific places in his house. He uses the breath as the central object, focusing on simply 'knowing' when he breathes in and out, rather than fixating on precise sensations.

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What is the Buddhist concept of 'no-self' or selflessness?

It suggests that the self we perceive is not as 'really real' as we feel it to be. When we peel away the stories and thoughts about who we are, we find a liberating 'not really knowing who you are,' rather than a complete non-existence.

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Is meditation a quick fix for psychological problems?

No, Dr. Epstein emphasizes that meditation, like psychotherapy, is not a quick fix. People are hard to change, and meditation requires consistent practice. It may not even be suitable for everyone, and other treatments like medication might be more effective for specific issues.

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How can meditation and mindfulness impact parenting?

Meditation can provide a peaceful moment after children are asleep. Dr. Epstein also used to meditate in the room with his children as they fell asleep, allowing them to know he was there without intruding, which he felt was helpful for them.

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What is the traditional Buddhist definition of enlightenment?

The traditional definition, often given when pressed, is the 'uprooting of greed, hatred, and delusion,' though Dr. Epstein expresses agnosticism about a definitive understanding.

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What is the difference between Theravadan and Mahayana Buddhism regarding enlightenment?

Theravadan Buddhism often views samsara (suffering in this life) as something to escape from to reach nirvana. Mahayana Buddhism, however, questions this dualism, seeing nirvana and samsara as two faces of the same coin, where the underlying reality of this world can be experienced as 'orgasmic' rather than suffering.

1. Adopt Holistic Well-being Approach

Utilize a diverse set of tools for well-being, including therapy, medication, sufficient sleep, a healthy diet, regular exercise, strong relationships, and meaningful work, rather than relying on a single solution. This comprehensive strategy acknowledges that no single method is a silver bullet and different approaches can address various aspects of health.

2. Practice Bare Attention/Mindfulness

Observe your thoughts and emotions without judgment or trying to change them, viewing the contents of your consciousness with a ‘beneficent remove’ like a grandparent watching children play. This allows something inherent in the mind’s potential to emerge naturally, similar to the attuned attention of a ‘good enough parent’.

3. Lean into Difficult Situations

When faced with discomfort or challenging circumstances, consciously choose to engage rather than withdraw, as Dan did during his wife’s surgery. Be aware of your instincts and emotions, but don’t let them dictate your actions, allowing you to respond in alignment with what you know is the right thing to do.

4. Cultivate Inner Refuge

Engage in meditation or similar practices to discover and access a ’timeless place’ inside yourself, which can serve as a personal sanctuary and source of inspiration. This inner space provides a place to go when seeking solace or clarity.

5. Practice Simple Breath Awareness

When meditating, focus on simply ‘knowing’ you are breathing in and out, rather than striving for precise sensations of the breath. This relaxed approach helps settle the mind into a more concentrated place, balancing effort and no effort productively.

6. Question ‘Really Real’ Self

Observe your self-stories and ingrained beliefs about who you are as transient thoughts, rather than solid realities, to approach the Buddhist concept of ’no-self.’ This practice can lead to a sense of freedom and foster greater kindness towards yourself and others by recognizing that self-conceptions are not as solid as they feel.

7. Recognize Insatiability

Understand that the constant pursuit of external pleasures and achievements, driven by an insatiable mind, often leads to dissatisfaction rather than lasting happiness. This awareness can help shift your perspective on the pursuit of happiness itself.

8. Approach Spiritual Goals Softly

When pursuing long-term spiritual aims, such as enlightenment, adopt a gentle, less aggressive approach, as this ‘softer way’ can paradoxically be more effective than forceful striving. Trying too hard can hinder progress, so backing off is a more intense and productive method.

9. Attend Silent Retreats Annually

Dedicate time each year to go on a silent meditation retreat for a week or ten days, or however much time you can give yourself. This practice helps deepen your meditation and allows for sustained focus away from daily distractions.

10. Meditate During Quiet Times

Utilize moments of peace, such as after children have gone to sleep, to meditate, as the household falls quiet. If children need your presence at bedtime, consider meditating quietly in their room to provide a calming influence without intruding.

11. Explore Non-Dualistic Buddhism

Investigate Mahayana or Tibetan Buddhist philosophies that view suffering (samsara) and liberation (nirvana) not as separate states, but as two faces of the same coin. This exploration can offer illuminating and refreshing perspectives on the nature of reality and enlightenment.

12. Consider Targeted Medication

For specific issues like performance anxiety in public settings, consult a doctor about appropriate medical treatments, such as beta-blockers (propranolol or inderal). These can provide highly effective and specific relief, sometimes more so than therapy or meditation alone for certain conditions.

13. Read ‘Going to Pieces’

Engage with Dr. Mark Epstein’s book, ‘Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart,’ to explore the intersection of psychology and Buddhism. This book offers insights into navigating life’s challenges and emotional experiences without collapsing.

14. Read ‘Trauma of Everyday Life’

Explore Dr. Mark Epstein’s book, ‘The Trauma of Everyday Life,’ to gain insights into how common life experiences can be understood through a lens that integrates psychological and Buddhist perspectives. This book offers a unique take on the nature of daily struggles.

15. Read ‘On Having No Head’

Explore the book ‘On Having No Head’ to investigate the concept of experiencing the world through ‘headlessness’ or a pure, unmediated knowing. This can be a powerful meditative reflection on the nature of perception and self.

His argument is, well, he compares the mind to a monkey. He says we're like furry little primates just hurling ourselves through a forest of urges and impulses and desires, constantly latching onto things that won't last in a universe that's characterized by impermanence, and hurling ourselves from one hit of pleasant experience to the next, one movie, one latte, one birthday to the next, and never fully satisfied.

Dan Harris

Once I got the three oranges in the air, like my mind had to relax in order to keep it going. And I understood, oh, yeah, I can use this as what they're trying to tell me to do in meditation.

Dr. Mark Epstein

You know that place inside of you where you feel the same, you know, who you were when you were 19 and who you were when you were 30 and who you were when you were 50. It doesn't really feel any different. And that place, if you try to look at it, it's hard to find. It's sort of invisible or transparent, but you kind of know you're you in there.

Dr. Mark Epstein

It's not that you're not real. Of course you're real. You know, your problem is you think you're really real.

Robert Thurman (quoting his Tibetan teacher)

One of the central paradoxes of Buddhism is that the bare attention of the meditative mind changes the psyche by not trying to change anything at all. The steady application of the meditative posture, like the steadiness of an attuned parent, allows something inherent in the mind's potential to emerge, and it emerges naturally if left alone properly in a good enough way.

Dr. Mark Epstein

Thich Nhat Hanh says, hold anger like a baby, which I always like.

Dr. Mark Epstein

The closest experience that we can have... that approximates the experience of enlightenment is the process of sexual union.

Dr. Mark Epstein

Dr. Mark Epstein's Current Meditation Practice

Dr. Mark Epstein
  1. Find a few good places around the house that are suitable for meditation.
  2. Sit without a clock or watch, meditating until it feels right to get up.
  3. Use the breath as the central object of attention.
  4. When breathing in, simply 'know that you're breathing in'.
  5. When breathing out, simply 'know that you're breathing out'.
  6. Avoid trying too hard to find precise sensations of the breath, instead focusing on simple awareness.
  7. Try to go on a silent retreat for a week or 10 days every year.

Meditation for Parents with Young Children

Dr. Mark Epstein
  1. Meditate after the baby goes to sleep, when peace falls in the household.
  2. If children have trouble falling asleep or want you to stay in the room, set up a meditation cushion in their room and meditate there, allowing them to know you are present.
42-44 years
Years Dr. Mark Epstein has been meditating Started in college around 1972.
30-some years
Years Dr. Mark Epstein has been seeing people in therapy Almost as long as he's been meditating.
17 months old
Age of Dan Harris's son Named Alexander.
Up to 30
Age range for young people's retreats at IMS Current definition for 'young people' retreats at the Insight Meditation Society.