Emma Seppala
Dan Harris speaks with Dr. Emma Seppala, Science Director at Stanford's Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education and author of "The Happiness Track." They discuss how happiness and success are mutually supportive, debunking myths about stress, self-criticism, and constant busyness.
Deep Dive Analysis
17 Topic Outline
Introduction: Success, Happiness, and Emma Seppala's Thesis
The Misconception of Suffering for Success
Emma's Personal Journey to Meditation and Healing
Lessons from a Happy Chinese Gentleman
The Influence of Bob Thurman and the Need for Practice
Finding a Suitable Meditation Practice: The Art of Living
Balancing Meditation Practice with Parenthood
Defining Success and the Bodhisattva Ideal
The Science of Compassion and Loving-Kindness
Defining Happiness: Hedonic vs. Eudaimonic
The Self-Interested Case for Compassion and Altruism
Myth 1: Success Requires Chronic Stress
Myth 2: Constant Activity Fosters Creativity
Myth 3: Self-Criticism Leads to Self-Improvement
Myth 4: High-Intensity Mode is Always Best (Energy Management)
The Impact of Email and Technology on Well-being
Emma Seppala's Background and Language Skills
5 Key Concepts
Hedonic Happiness
This type of happiness is derived from the pleasure of the senses, such as sex, drugs, food, money, and material things. It comes in short bursts that dissipate quickly, and prioritizing it can lead to high inflammation levels in the body.
Eudaimonic Happiness
This form of happiness is derived from a sense of purpose, service, or something greater than oneself, often involving spirituality, religion, or positive social relationships. It is associated with low inflammation levels and can contribute to greater longevity.
Delta Mode
This is a daydreamy brain state where individuals are most creative and capable of coming up with insights. It often occurs when the mind is idle, such as in the shower or in the dozy place before sleep, and can be accessed through practices like meditation or silent retreats.
Self-Compassion
This is the ability to treat oneself as one would a friend, particularly in the face of failure or mistakes. It involves remembering the universality of mistakes, being mindful of emotions without catastrophizing, and offering oneself kindness rather than self-criticism.
Constructive Anguish
A term used by Dan Harris to describe a certain amount of worry, stress, or anxiety that can be useful for motivation, strategizing, and being 'on the game,' as long as it is not excessive or chronic.
10 Questions Answered
Success and happiness are mutually supportive, and the assumption that they are at cross-purposes is incorrect. Happiness is actually a prerequisite for real success, rather than something to be postponed or sacrificed.
Emma first tried meditation in college at Yale, initially finding it austere, but experienced a profound shift that helped her overcome an eating disorder. Later, she was inspired by a happy elderly Chinese gentleman and the teachings of Bob Thurman, leading her to seek out various meditation teachers and practices.
Hedonic happiness is the pleasure of the senses, providing short bursts of excitement that quickly fade and can increase inflammation. Eudaimonic happiness comes from purpose, service, and positive social relationships, leading to lower inflammation and potentially longer life.
Research suggests that being a kinder, collegial, and helpful person, without being a doormat, actually generates greater loyalty, makes people like you more, and increases their willingness to help you, leading to better professional outcomes.
Common myths include believing that success requires chronic stress, that constant activity fosters creativity, that self-criticism leads to self-improvement, and that living in a high-intensity mode all the time is optimal.
Chronically activating the fight-or-flight response through constant stress (e.g., over-caffeinating, over-scheduling) taxes the immune system, attention, and memory, leading to exhaustion, burnout, and various stress-related diseases.
People are most creative when their brain is in a 'delta mode' or daydreamy state, often when they are idle, such as in the shower or just before sleep. Diversifying interests and making time for silence also significantly foster creativity.
No, research indicates that individuals who engage in a lot of self-criticism are less resilient in the face of failure and less likely to grow from their mistakes. Self-compassion, treating oneself like a friend, is more effective for resilience and growth.
One can manage energy by distributing the day with alternating high-intensity and low-intensity activities, and by valuing calm more. Engaging in calming activities helps balance high-energy demands, preventing complete exhaustion by the end of the day.
Opening an inbox activates the stress response, and the varied emotional content of emails can create an emotional rollercoaster. Constantly checking email, especially outside work hours, can ruin personal moments and prevent true relaxation.
39 Actionable Insights
1. Prioritize Happiness for Success
Adopt the mindset that happiness and success are mutually supportive, and that real success requires some degree of happiness, rather than assuming they are at cross purposes.
2. Challenge Suffering for Success
Reject the misconception that suffering is a necessary indicator of working hard enough or a prerequisite for success, as this belief can lead to burnout.
3. Prioritize Energy Management
Shift your focus from solely time management to energy management, as you have more control over your energy levels throughout the day and can optimize them for sustained productivity.
4. Alternate High & Low Intensity Tasks
Distribute your daily tasks by alternating between high-intensity, concentration-heavy work and lower-intensity activities like organizing or data entry, to manage your energy, prevent burnout, and foster creativity.
5. Restore Natural Relaxation
Reconnect with your body’s natural ability to relax and restore itself, allowing for natural energy and rest, rather than constantly overstimulating yourself during the day and needing aids to sleep at night.
6. Embrace Idleness for Creativity
Cultivate creativity and breakthrough insights by allowing yourself to be idle, daydream, and let your mind wander, as the brain is most innovative in these relaxed ‘delta mode’ states.
7. Diversify Learning for Creativity
Enhance your creativity and ability to find solutions by diversifying your learning and activities, reading outside your field, and exploring different interests to see the ‘forest’ rather than just the ’trees’.
8. Integrate Silence for Insight
Schedule time for silence in your life, whether through daily meditation or longer silent retreats, to gain profound insights and detach from the constant mental chatter.
9. Work Hard, Then Rest for Insights
After intense periods of work and research, intentionally disengage and allow for rest or distraction, as this creates the space for creative insights and solutions to naturally emerge.
10. Avoid Excessive Self-Criticism
Understand that being your own toughest critic actually makes you less resilient to failure and less likely to grow from mistakes, acting as a form of self-sabotage.
11. Practice Self-Compassion
Develop self-compassion by treating yourself like a friend when you make mistakes or fail, remembering the universality of human error and observing emotions mindfully, rather than engaging in self-sabotage.
12. Three Pillars of Self-Compassion
When facing mistakes, practice self-compassion by remembering the universality of human error, mindfully observing your emotions without catastrophizing, and treating yourself with the same kindness and honesty you would a close friend.
13. Self-Compassion Includes Self-Respect
Understand that self-compassion involves maintaining self-respect and taking necessary action when others trespass against you, rather than passively allowing yourself to be taken advantage of.
14. Recognize Emotion’s Purpose
Acknowledge that all emotions, including negative ones like anguish or anger, serve a purpose in motivating you to plan, strategize, or correct situations.
15. Train for Altruism & Compassion
Actively train your mind through practices like compassion training or loving-kindness meditation, as research shows this can systematically increase your inclination toward altruism, generosity, and compassion, even in short durations.
16. Embrace Altruism for Happiness
Recognize that altruism and compassion are powerful secrets to personal happiness and well-being, offering both self-interested and other-interested benefits.
17. Act Altruistically with Genuine Intent
Ensure your altruistic actions are driven by a genuine desire to help others, as performing them with purely selfish intent may prevent you from reaping the full psychological and health benefits.
18. Cultivate Kindness for Loyalty
Be a kinder, more collegial person who goes out of their way to help others, ensuring you don’t let yourself be taken advantage of, as this generates greater loyalty and willingness from others to help you.
19. Create Positive Work Culture
As a leader, foster a positive work environment by treating your team members well, involving them in important tasks like client meetings, and empowering them with responsibility, which can lead to greater success.
20. Find Your Meditation Fit
Explore various meditation and breathing practices to discover which one genuinely suits your temperament and helps you achieve calm, rather than forcing a method that causes anxiety.
21. Establish a Consistent Daily Practice
Incorporate a consistent daily routine of calming breathing exercises (like pranayama and Sudarshan Kriya) for 20 minutes, followed by two 20-minute mantra meditations, and 12 sun salutations to settle the mind and maintain well-being.
22. Meditate for Emotional Clarity
Engage in meditation to develop greater clarity and awareness of your emotions, which can help you gain freedom from impulses and make more conscious choices.
23. Practice Informal Meditation
Incorporate informal meditation into your day by taking moments to sit, observe your surroundings (e.g., nature), and focus on your breath to cultivate inner peace.
24. Prioritize Practice Over Study
Recognize that personal growth and insight come from consistent practice and direct experience, rather than solely from intellectual understanding or academic study.
25. Self-Care Improves Parenting
Prioritize carving out time for self-care activities, such as meditation, because being a happier and calmer person yourself directly enhances your ability to be a better parent.
26. Practice Wisely Selfish Self-Care
Make conscious choices about how you use your time, ensuring activities fundamentally nurture you and put you in an optimal state of mind to be your best self for others.
27. Define Personal Success
Reflect on and personally define what success means to you, considering metrics beyond conventional ones like income, and potentially focusing on contribution to others or being your best self.
28. Accept Healthy Self-Interest
Don’t fight against your natural self-interest, as it can be a protective mechanism that allows you to be your best self and make a greater impact on others.
29. Value Calm Over Constant Intensity
Understand that maintaining a high-intensity mode continuously, even during leisure, taxes your body by registering as a stress response, so consciously value and seek out calm.
30. Approach Tasks with Calm
When tackling lower-intensity tasks such as email, consciously choose to approach them calmly rather than over-caffeinating or getting hyped, to effectively manage your energy throughout the day.
31. Avoid Chronic Stress
Recognize that chronic stress, fueled by constant adrenaline, depletes your energy, taxes your body, and leads to burnout, so avoid maintaining a high-stress response all the time.
32. Respect Your Body’s Need for Rest
Be mindful of using stimulants like caffeine to push through fatigue, as this taxes your nervous system and ignores your body’s need for rest, leading to eventual burnout.
33. Set Email Boundaries
Establish clear boundaries around checking email, acknowledging that it can activate a stress response and elicit a wide range of emotions, to protect your mental well-being.
34. Evening Email Cut-Off
Implement a rule to stop checking email at a specific time in the evening (e.g., 7 p.m.) to honor personal and family time and reduce work-related stress.
35. Limit Device Use for Presence
Actively limit the presence and use of phones and computers during family time and on weekends, even leaving them at home, to foster presence and protect precious personal moments.
36. Reduce Phone Use for Daydreaming
Consciously reduce constant phone use, especially during moments of waiting or downtime, to create opportunities for your mind to wander and engage in creative daydreaming.
37. Choose Meditation Over Social Media
Opt for nurturing practices like loving-kindness meditation over spending time on social media, which often leads to comparison and is less fulfilling.
38. Practice Loving-Kindness Meditation
Engage in loving-kindness meditation by first visualizing and feeling love coming to you from those who care for you, then extending that feeling of love outward to others.
39. Model Balanced Screen Time
Strive to model balanced screen time and technology use for your children, demonstrating moderation and presence in the external world, even as screens become an inevitable part of their lives.
8 Key Quotes
My parents told me that in order to be successful, I have to work very hard. And when I asked, how do I know if I'm working hard enough? They said, when you're suffering.
Emma Seppala
I'm not going to argue about Tibetan translations of this or that text. This is not about, this is not an intellectual exercise. I have to practice.
Emma Seppala
I always tell people to find the shoe that fits because I had struggled with mindfulness. I found it really hard. I found it very, for me, it raised a lot of anxiety.
Emma Seppala
If you do altruistic acts with a selfish intent, you don't actually reap the benefits psychologically and health-wise.
Emma Seppala
You're only supposed to feel stress five minutes of your life right before you die.
Robert Sapolsky (quoted by Emma Seppala)
Self-criticism basically is self-sabotage.
Emma Seppala
The price of security is insecurity.
Dan Harris's father (quoted by Dan Harris)
I've taken a break from the Times Square of my head.
Pico Iyer (quoted by Emma Seppala)
3 Protocols
Art of Living Happiness Program (Sudarshan Kriya)
Emma Seppala- Perform basic yogic breathing exercises (pranayama), such as ujjayi breath.
- Engage in Sudarshan Kriya, which involves rhythmic breathing at different paces (fast, medium).
- Practice this for about 20 minutes daily as a home practice to calm oneself before deeper meditation.
Self-Compassion Practice
Emma Seppala- Remember the universality of the situation: everyone makes mistakes, period.
- Be mindful around what's happening to you, watching emotions come up without catastrophizing or diving deep into drama.
- Treat yourself like a friend, saying things to yourself that you would to someone very close to you who has experienced the same situation, telling the truth without laceration.
Energy Management for Daily Activities
Emma Seppala- Distribute your day by alternating between high-intensity and low-intensity activities (e.g., a concentration-heavy presentation followed by less intense tasks like rearranging a desk or entering data).
- Remember you don't need to be in high-intensity mode all the time; approach less demanding tasks like email with a calm mindset.
- Value calm more and engage in calming activities to balance out high-energy demands, helping to manage overall energy and prevent burnout by the end of the day.