George Saunders On: Getting Un-Stuck, Calming the Inner Critic, and Building Empathy Without Becoming a Chump
Dan Harris speaks with celebrated author George Saunders about his new novel, Vigil, and how fiction can teach empathy and self-awareness. They discuss overcoming stuckness, the role of metacognition, and the value of stretching oneself creatively as one ages.
Deep Dive Analysis
16 Topic Outline
Introduction to George Saunders and 'Vigil'
Author's Fascination with Ghosts and Afterlife
Mortality Dread and Life's Urgency
Afterlife Cosmology and Mind State at Death
Self-Deception and Delusion in Life and Writing
Overcoming Stuckness and Self-Criticism
Warm Metacognition: Examining One's Goggles
Empathy and Judgment: The Lavish Jailing Concept
Empathy's Limits and the Wrathful Teacher
'Elevation' in 'Vigil': Freedom vs. Physical Self
Fiction as a 'Reconsideration Machine'
Absolution for Civilizational Damage
Importance of Creative Stretching with Age
Confronting the Accelerated Fear of Death
Art, Buddhism, and Visceral Belief in Life's Meaning
Learning to Be a Better Listener
5 Key Concepts
Warm Metacognition
This is the practice of gently stepping back from one's immediate thought loops to observe the mental framework or 'goggles' through which one is perceiving a situation. It involves a compassionate awareness of one's own biases and projections, fostering openness and reducing defensiveness.
Lavish Jailing
A concept suggesting that an individual's life path and choices are largely predetermined by their inherent predispositions and the specific events they encounter, making their actions seem 'inevitable.' This perspective implies that judging others harshly becomes ludicrous, as they are essentially 'trapped' within their own unique, unchosen conditions.
Reconsideration Machine (Fiction as)
Good fiction, particularly the works of authors like Chekhov, can function as a tool that slows down the reader's mind and highlights their tendency to make quick, facile judgments. By presenting complex situations without easy answers, it encourages patience, deeper understanding, and a dissipation of the desire to judge.
Elevation (in Vigil)
A state experienced by the character Jill in George Saunders' novel 'Vigil,' which is akin to enlightenment. In this state, Jill feels free from her physical self, gaining access to a higher range of language, omniscience, and a vast, compassionate view of things, though she is also drawn back to the pleasures of her physical existence.
Flooding (Communication)
In communication, flooding refers to overwhelming someone with too much information, which prevents them from truly hearing or processing what is being said. Effective communication, conversely, involves delivering information in smaller, judicious 'judo-like chunks' to keep the listener in a rational, receptive state rather than an emotional, defensive one.
9 Questions Answered
He finds these themes 'fun' and challenging, as they allow him to stretch creatively and explore deeper questions about mortality and consciousness in an engaging way.
He suspects there's an experience after death, possibly a vivid and time-unlimited dream-like state, which might be influenced by how one lived or the state of one's mind at the moment of passing.
Existing in a delusional relationship to reality, such as consistently failing to listen to others, leads to ongoing suffering in every moment, even if one is never consciously aware of it.
By cultivating a mindset of curiosity rather than self-accusation, accepting that being stuck is part of the process, and being open to any answers, even if they seem initially 'fatal,' rather than being defensive.
Empathy, viewed as an attempt to understand an 'enemy's' sorrows, has no inherent limitation and can make one a more effective actor, provided it doesn't lead to 'idiot compassion' that prevents necessary action.
Fiction can serve as a 'reconsideration machine,' slowing down our minds and making us aware of our tendency for quick judgments, thereby training us to be more patient and open to gathering more information before forming opinions.
Internally, a form of salvation is possible if they can truthfully acknowledge their wrongdoing and misspent life, freeing them from denial, even if it doesn't undo their past actions or prevent external consequences.
He seeks to avoid complacency, challenge his perceived limitations, and access unexplored 'quadrants' of his consciousness, believing that consciousness is unlimited and can be expanded beyond habitual patterns.
Hosting the show has taught him to be a better listener, moving away from impetuosity and impatience to a more responsive and less 'flooding' conversational style, which he considers a significant personal benefit.
27 Actionable Insights
1. Empathy as Strategic Tool
Practice empathy as an elaborate thought experiment to understand your opponents’ sorrows. This makes you a more effective actor in pushing back against negative movements, rather than eroding your edge.
2. Cultivate Reconsideration Machine Mind
Train your mind to be a ‘reconsideration machine’ by slowing down judgment and seeking more information. This allows your desire to judge to dissipate, leading to deeper understanding.
3. Practice Warm Metacognition
Develop a habit of ‘warm metacognition’ by observing your mental state and biases (e.g., mood, defensiveness) in any situation. This allows you to quiet overthinking and access more objective data from the world.
4. Approach Problems with Curiosity
When facing stuckness or challenges, approach the situation with quiet curiosity rather than self-accusation or overthinking. Ask ‘what’s happening here?’ to foster openness to solutions and minimize anxiety.
5. Embrace Obstructions for Growth
View the difficulties, doubts, and frustrations encountered in your work or life as opportunities for growth and stretching. The harder the problem, the greater the potential for self-expansion and finding new abilities.
6. Avoid Delusional Reality Relation
Recognize that existing in a delusional relation to reality leads to ongoing suffering in every minute. Strive for an accurate understanding of reality to alleviate this suffering and improve your moment-to-moment experience.
7. Prioritize Meditation Practice
Engage in meditation to reduce clinging to yourself and lessen the fear of death. Reorient your life to pay more attention to practices that foster inner peace and alter your relationship with mortality.
8. Challenge with Audacious Projects
As you get older, take on audacious or ‘impossible’ projects that push your abilities and force you into new modes of thinking. This combats stagnation, affirms vitality, and helps explore unexplored aspects of yourself.
9. Imagine Beloved Audience
When creating or communicating, imagine your audience as a beloved, intelligent friend whom you cannot easily fool. This elevates your intention and compels you to deliver your best, most sincere work.
10. Avoid Communication ‘Flooding’
In conversations, avoid ‘flooding’ people with too much information, as they cannot hear it effectively. Instead, offer judicious, small ‘judo-like chunks’ of information to keep them in their prefrontal cortex for better understanding.
11. Practice Mental Leaning Back
In conversations, make a slight mental adjustment to ’lean back’ and listen more. This allows others to speak fully, leading to perfect moments for light, judo-like suggestions that will be heard.
12. Judge Less, Praise with Reserve
Endeavor to judge others less harshly and praise with more reserve, recognizing that innate qualities and even the ability to work hard are not chosen. This fosters a more compassionate and understanding worldview.
13. Seek Internal Truth, Acknowledge Wrongdoing
Even when external actions are no longer possible, seek internal truth by acknowledging wrongdoing and facing it directly. This internal shift can be a form of salvation, freeing you from a denial mindset.
14. Pay Attention to Everything
Live with the awareness that everything matters, suffering is real, and death is imminent. Pay attention to every moment as if it were your last on earth to deepen your visceral belief in life’s urgency.
15. Engage with Art for Tenderness
Use art, such as reading fiction, as a means to slow things down and prepare yourself for tenderness. This practice can subtly reveal your mind’s usual habits and cultivate compassion.
16. Let Work Guide Self-Expansion
Allow your creative work or projects to guide you, teaching you what they want you to do rather than rigidly adhering to a preconceived approach. This process can reveal new things about yourself and serve as a self-expansion device.
17. Seek Positive, Courteous Communities
Actively seek out and engage with communities that foster positive, smart, and courteous communication. Learning from such environments can counteract despair about human interaction.
18. Aim for Heartfelt Communication
In real life, aim for ‘boring, heartfelt communication’ that prioritizes clear understanding and genuine connection over dramatic or distorted exchanges. This makes life dissimilar from good fiction, where dialogue often zings past each other.
19. Differentiate Kindness from Niceness
Understand the distinction between kindness and niceness in your actions. True kindness may sometimes involve ‘wrathful compassion’ or stern action to prevent harm, rather than merely being pleasant.
20. Use Fiction for Mental Habits
Engage with fiction as a ’lightweight training’ to slow down and observe your mind’s usual habits, such as the proclivity for facile judgment. This helps you become aware of your internal processes.
21. Approach Creative Work with Joy
When starting creative projects, aim for a sense of ‘anticipatory frolic’ and fun, scanning for topics that genuinely light you up. This approach minimizes anxiety and increases freshness and productivity.
22. Persist Through Obstructions
When faced with difficult obstructions in your work or life, commit to coming back day after day and ‘hitting your head against the obstruction.’ Persistence is key to eventually overcoming challenges.
23. Reorient Life for Inner Peace
Make a conscious effort to slightly reorient your life to prioritize activities and practices that lead to more inner peace. This involves paying more attention to what truly nurtures your well-being.
24. Explore Unexplored Self Quadrants
Actively seek to find and explore ‘unexplored quadrants’ of yourself. Recognize that consciousness is unlimited, but habits can pen it in, and rigorous effort can break down these walls.
25. Strive for Sincerity and Best Effort
Ensure that any work you put out reflects your best effort and sincere intention. This commitment ensures that your work communicates genuine engagement and care to others.
26. Be Alert to Actions’ Consequences
Cultivate an awareness that the ‘punishment and reward’ of your actions and mind states are being collected in every instant. This immediate feedback loop affects the quality of your present moment.
27. Embrace Life’s Pleasures Urgently
View life as an amazing party with an unknown departure time, which should make you want to submerge yourself into its pleasures with urgency. This perspective can heighten appreciation for the present.
7 Key Quotes
Flannery O'Connor said this great thing about a writer can choose what he writes. But he can't choose what he makes live.
George Saunders
I'm not afraid of death. I just don't want to be there when it happens.
Dan Harris
If you have a political opponent, the more time you can spend trying to understand them from the inside, the more effectively you can push back.
George Saunders
The confusion I think we have with kindness and niceness.
George Saunders
Chekhov said, you know, a work of art doesn't have to solve a problem. It just has to formulate it correctly.
George Saunders
I find Buddhism inspiring in that it says everything matters. Suffering is real. Death is imminent. Pay attention to everything as if this was your last moment on earth.
George Saunders
It's kind of like if you're, you know, if you're, I'm going to fix that car. Well, you might want to spend some time figuring out what car it is. How does it work? You could still have the fierce desire to fix the car, but then you'd have some tools.
George Saunders
1 Protocols
George Saunders' Approach to Overcoming Stuckness in Writing
George Saunders- Acknowledge being stuck without self-accusation (e.g., 'Oh, okay. I'm stuck,' rather than 'Oh, damn it. I'm stuck. I'm worthless').
- Cultivate a quiet and curious mind to understand the actual nature of the stuckness ('What's actually happening here?').
- Be open to accepting any answer, even a 'fatal' one (e.g., that the book might need to be discarded), as often the solution is simpler.
- Allow all 'writers' within oneself (including irrational, overly generous, or stringent perspectives) to contribute, trusting that mistakes can be corrected later.
- Nurture 'warm metacognition' by regularly stepping back to observe the mental 'goggles' through which one is viewing the work.
- Approach the work with deep love for the form, patience, and a willingness to undertake numerous rewrites, driven by the intention to produce one's best work.