George Saunders on: "Holy Befuddlement" and How to Be Less of a "Turd"

Oct 12, 2022 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Author George Saunders, winner of the 2017 Man Booker Prize, discusses 'holy befuddlement' as an antidote to dogmatism and a path to cognitive empathy. He shares insights on managing self-expectations, healthy ways to enjoy praise, and cultivating a nuanced relationship with the self to navigate life's complexities.

At a Glance
47 Insights
1h 3m Duration
15 Topics
7 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Societal Dogmatism and Holy Befuddlement

Meaning Behind 'Liberation Day' Book Title

The Concept and Benefits of Holy Befuddlement

Art's Role in Reorientation and Moral Elevation

Managing Artistic Expectations and Enjoying Praise

Distinguishing Selfish Craving from Healthy Desire

Balancing Befuddlement with Urgent Societal Action

Using Provisional Language in Communication

Empathy and Shifting Perspectives in Storytelling

Understanding the 'Not-Self' Concept

The Mysterious Nature of Creativity and Ideation

Impact of Not Meditating on Mind and Work

Forgiveness and Human Limitations in 'The Mom of Bold Action'

Impermanence as a 'Holy Truth' in 'My House'

The Enduring Power and Comfort of Art

Holy Befuddlement

This state removes one's ability to make facile mistakes, fostering humility and a new respect for problems. It turns off delusional tricks and the desire for quick answers, allowing for deeper understanding and a temporary release from usual easy answers.

Reorientation (Effect of Art)

Art does not teach entirely new things but reminds individuals of a better, deeper part of themselves, helping them reconnect with their capacity for kindness or daring. It serves to re-elevate moral awareness rather than introduce fresh concepts.

Moral Elevation

A feeling experienced when witnessing an act of kindness or sublimity, which can provide a 'contact high' and remind one of their own capacity for good actions. It suggests that small, quotidian acts of kindness are meaningful and not trivial.

Absolute vs. Relative Truth

Absolute truth suggests that everything is empty of inherent meaning until human personality comes to it and creates meaning. Relative truth, however, acknowledges that in the details of everyday life, small actions and desires do matter and are essential for human experience.

Provisional Language

A communication technique that involves lacing comments with words like 'perhaps,' 'maybe,' or 'could' to acknowledge uncertainty. This approach creates more space and intimacy in conversations by making a real nod to the inherent limits of what we truly know.

Empathy in Art/Writing

The practice of caring for the reader's journey and the characters, achieved through slow-motion revision and actively considering the reader's potential objections or understanding. It's a form of practicing caring, where the author exaggerates the extent to which the other person (reader or character) is present and beloved.

Not-Self (Anatta)

A Buddhist concept suggesting that anything arising in the mind (thoughts, impulses) cannot be claimed as one's permanent self, promoting a light, non-attached relationship to mental phenomena rather than seeking to annihilate the self. It's about a proper relationship to the self, not its total absence.

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What is 'holy befuddlement' and how can it help us?

Holy befuddlement is a state of genuine uncertainty that removes the ability to make facile mistakes, fostering humility and respect for problems by turning off delusional tricks and the desire for quick answers.

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How can artists manage expectations and praise after achieving success?

Artists can acknowledge and observe their inclination to be 'gassy and bloated' from attention, then consciously decide if that serves their future work, using the desire for praise as fuel without wallowing in it.

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How can one reconcile the 'absolute' truth of life's emptiness with the 'relative' truth of everyday meaning?

While absolute truth suggests meaning is empty until created by human personality, relative truth acknowledges that small, everyday actions and desires do matter and are essential for living.

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How can we engage with urgent societal problems without becoming dogmatic?

By cultivating a state of 'holy befuddlement' through art or moments of moral elevation, one can approach difficult conversations with less 'BS,' a wider range of opportunities, and a more fully human perspective.

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What is 'provisional language' and how does it improve communication?

Provisional language involves using words like 'perhaps,' 'maybe,' or 'could' to acknowledge uncertainty, creating more space and intimacy in conversations by recognizing that others may not immediately agree with your viewpoint.

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How does George Saunders use shifting perspectives in his stories?

Saunders shifts perspectives, often introducing new narrators, to overcome creative blocks, introduce new thematic elements, and allow his authorial advocacy to genuinely shift, fostering a 'God's eye view' that loves all characters.

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What is the Buddhist concept of 'not-self' and how does it differ from 'no-self'?

Not-self (anatta) suggests that anything arising in the mind cannot be claimed as one's permanent self, promoting a light, non-attached relationship to thoughts and impulses rather than seeking to annihilate the self.

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How does a lack of meditation impact George Saunders' mind and work?

Without meditating, Saunders notices old habits, thought loops, obsession, neurosis, and negativity returning, though other activities like physical work and writing can also provide countercurrents of lightness and positivity.

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What is the nature of forgiveness as explored in 'The Mom of Bold Action'?

Forgiveness is depicted as a complex process where one might imagine a melding of victim and offender for self-forgiveness, but in real life, human limitations and deep hurts can make it difficult to extend that same forgiveness to those who have truly wronged them.

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What is the 'holy truth' of impermanence?

Impermanence is the realization that 'everything has always been falling down around us,' and 'nothing lasts,' a truth that can be felt in the body as a 'falling apart,' which, while terrifying, is also profound.

1. Cultivate Holy Befuddlement

Embrace “holy befuddlement” or “don’t know mind” to counter rigid views and attachment to being right, fostering humility and improving interpersonal relationships. This state removes the ability to make facile mistakes and cultivates new respect for problems.

2. Embrace Contradictory Truths

Aim to feel comfortable and intelligent when holding two seemingly contradictory notions that both appear true, allowing them to coexist without immediate resolution. This is described as a “highest place to be” for understanding.

3. Accept Impermanence as Holy Truth

Acknowledge the “holy truth” that everything is constantly falling apart and nothing lasts, striving to accept this reality in your body and mind without succumbing to terror. This understanding can be a profound, albeit sometimes terrifying, truth.

4. Empathy Permeates Self-Other Barrier

Actively inhabit other minds to understand that the barrier between self and other is permeable, fostering forgiveness by recognizing that under different conditions, you might have acted similarly. This deep understanding can make it difficult to remain angry.

5. Prepare for Difficult Conversations

Before engaging in difficult conversations, clear your mind of projections and “shoulds,” then seek a moment of “moral elevation” through art or observation. This opens your heart and allows you to approach the discussion with less “BS” and more openness.

6. Use Provisional Language

In arguments, lace your comments with words like “perhaps,” “maybe,” or “could” to make a genuine nod to uncertainty. This technique creates space for dialogue and avoids presenting your views as absolute truths.

7. Build Off-Ramps in Conflict

In conflicts, put aside outrage, listen, and offer “off-ramps” for the other person by suggesting you might be wrong or they know better. This approach fosters intimacy in communication and creates more space for resolution.

8. Slow Down for Fairer Judgment

Intentionally slow down your thinking, especially if anxious or fast-brained, to cultivate a more fair, caring, and thoughtful internal arbiter. This allows for deeper consideration than you might achieve when rushing.

9. Fondness Without Self-Attachment

Cultivate a relationship with your “self” that is fond but not overly attached or protective, viewing it as a temporary, changing gift. This allows appreciation without clinging to its permanence or perfection.

10. Practice Not-Self Observation

Observe thoughts and impulses as they arise in your mind, recognizing that you don’t own them and cannot claim ownership. This fosters a proper, non-attached relationship to your mental content without annihilating the self.

11. Treat Ideas as Temporary Gifts

View creative ideas and thoughts as temporary gifts, not personal possessions, maintaining a light attachment. This enables you to easily cut or change them if they no longer serve the work, like returning them to the wind.

12. Kill Your Darlings

Be willing to remove ideas or phrases you’re fond of if they don’t serve the overall work, avoiding the trap of clinging to them just because they make you feel clever. Clinging to them will ultimately detract from the story’s service.

13. Focused Creative Mind State

Seek to enter a non-normal, highly focused mental state during creative work, characterized by less rumination and intense concentration on the immediate task. This state, similar to a rock climber’s focus, can lead to happiness and productivity.

14. Small Kind Actions Matter

Recognize that small, incremental actions of kindness are meaningful and not trivial, especially amidst larger global craziness. These small acts are not inconsequential and contribute significantly to positive change.

15. Compassion Has No Hierarchy

Understand that compassionate action has no hierarchy; small acts of kindness are just as valuable as grand gestures. Do not negate small acts because you haven’t accomplished a big one.

16. Relative Truth: Small Things Matter

While acknowledging the absolute emptiness of meaning, recognize that on a relative scale, small actions genuinely matter and create good. For example, saying the right thing to someone feeling bad is a tangible good.

17. Manage Self-Generated Expectations

Acknowledge and observe self-generated expectations and the negative ways attention might make you act, then consciously work to “knock it off your back.” This prevents such expectations from hindering future work.

18. Quick Hit of Praise, Move On

When receiving praise, take a quick hit of pleasure but then move “onward” without overusing or clinging to it. Excessive dwelling on praise diminishes its positive effect, like overeating candy.

19. Use All Motivations as Fuel

Don’t judge your initial motivations for working, even if they seem “crass” (e.g., wanting praise), but instead convert them into fuel to drive your efforts. This allows deeper, more wholesome motivations to emerge over time.

20. Work as Love Exchange

View your work as an exchange of love: you give useful work to your audience, and in return, you receive love that fuels your ability to create more. It’s acceptable to have these motivations if they are in their proper place.

21. Have Questions, Not Answers

Approach situations by having questions rather than assuming you have all the answers, especially when discussing complex topics. This fosters a more open, learning mindset and avoids dogmatism.

22. Recognize Dogmatism’s Subtle Pain

Be aware of the “subtle pain of dogmatism”—the discomfort that arises when you strenuously argue for something you secretly suspect isn’t true. This discomfort signals a need for more openness and less certainty.

23. Art for Better Action

Engage with art to cultivate a fuller, more human presence, which prepares you to make better decisions and take more effective action when urgent issues arise. This ensures you are “fully there” in your actions.

24. Art for Self-Reorientation

Engage with art to reorient yourself, reminding you of a deeper, better part of yourself that resides more profoundly in the world. This is especially useful when you find yourself running on autopilot.

25. Seek Moral Elevation

Seek out or observe acts of kindness to experience “moral elevation,” which serves as a reminder that you are capable of similar kindness and daring. This reinforces your ability to act compassionately.

26. Practice Empathy Through Revision

In creative work and communication, practice empathy through revision by actively considering the “other person” (e.g., the reader’s objections or journey). Rewrite to give them more credit and care, making communication more intimate.

27. Care for Characters and Subjects

Extend care and attention not only to your audience but also to the subjects or characters you portray. Ensure you give them their due and avoid superficial representation.

28. Technical Practice Fosters Empathy

Engage in specific technical practices in creative work, such as density of detail, specificity, and precision of language. Paradoxically, these mechanical means lead to increased empathy for the subject being described.

29. Practices for Self-Improvement

Recognize that wishing to be better is insufficient; instead, engage in specific practices (like writing or other disciplines) that, even obliquely, cultivate desired qualities such as empathy. Wishing alone doesn’t make it so.

30. Trust Intuition in Creative Work

For artistic or creative work, trust intuition and a gut-level response by coming to the work daily, making iterative changes based on immediate feedback. This process allows a deeper wisdom to emerge beyond habitual thinking.

31. Focus on Small Creative Tweaks

In creative work, focus on small, incremental tweaks (e.g., individual sentences, word choice) rather than aiming for greatness from the outset. These micro-decisions cumulatively build the larger work.

32. Refine Work to Title

After choosing a title, continue to make tweaks and revisions to the work to ensure it fully embodies and lives up to the chosen title’s meaning. This iterative process helps align the content with its overarching theme.

33. Title Selection Process

When selecting titles, initially choose the “least bad” option, then read the complete work with a fresh mind to identify emerging themes. Refine the title to resonate with the deeper meaning discovered during this fresh read.

34. Observe Meditation’s Absence

Notice the return of old negative thought patterns, obsession, neurosis, and negativity when you neglect meditation. Use this awareness to reinforce the value of the practice and motivate a return to it.

35. Physical Work for Mental Well-being

Recognize that physical activity (like intense cleaning or exercise) and engaging in creative work can significantly contribute to a lighter, more positive mind. These activities can be beneficial even when meditation is neglected.

36. Cultivate Inner Desire for Practice

Allow the discomfort of a neglected inner world to cultivate an intrinsic desire for practice (like meditation), rather than relying on external “shoulds.” This leads to a more genuine return to beneficial habits.

37. Avoid Meditation Fundamentalism

Avoid “meditation fundamentalism” by recognizing that many diverse psychological, spiritual, and physical practices can be beneficial. Meditation is just one of many valuable tools for well-being.

38. Be Aware of Ego’s Cleverness

Be aware of the ego’s “cleverness,” as it can even co-opt spiritual practices like meditation, turning them into a source of pride or a justification for other behaviors. The ego is slippery and finds many forms.

39. Agitation in Creative Mix

Recognize that for some, a degree of “agitation” or “desire for praise” can be a productive part of the creative mix. These elements can contribute to effective work, though not as a universal policy.

40. Forgiveness as Perspective Melding

Consider forgiveness as a profound melding of perspectives, where truly understanding another person’s complete experience and motivations makes it difficult to remain angry. In this state, you “are” them in that moment of understanding.

41. Acknowledge Forgiveness Limits

Acknowledge the realistic limits of your own forgiveness, recognizing that despite intentions for infinite compassion, there will be offenses that cause you to balk and cling to your sense of being correct. This reflects human complexity.

42. Prioritize Others’ Relief

Practice refraining from actions that would provide you personal relief (e.g., confessing a mistake) if those actions would ultimately make another person’s life worse. Prioritize their well-being over your own immediate comfort.

43. Illustrate Human Failure in Art

Find artistic and human merit in illustrating instances where characters (and by extension, people) fall short of ideals, rather than always seeking uplifting or morally coherent endings. This reflects real-life complexity and fosters reader identification.

44. Manage Moral Fluctuations

Recognize that spiritual experiences and moral elevation are real, even if followed by moments of “turdness.” View these as fluctuations and strive to increase the frequency of positive states and reduce negative ones.

45. Character Failure Fosters Identification

Allow characters to fail in stories to create reader identification, fostering a sense that it’s okay for individuals to fall short in real life without it being “the end of the world.” This promotes self-acceptance.

46. Feelings on a Continuum

Understand that all human feelings exist on a continuum, meaning even a slight experience of a feeling (e.g., mild hunger) can provide insight into its more extreme forms. This fosters empathy by connecting shared human experience.

47. Reduce Dogmatism

Actively work to reduce dogmatism in your views and interactions. This practice can help you be “less of a turd” and improve your character and relationships.

I honestly don't know. I really don't know. And for me, it's even become sometimes a feeling of strength to go, I'm all right with this feeling of being truly befuddled.

George Saunders

I think befuddlement is holy because it turns off certain delusional tricks, I guess. Certain ways that we know A and B about ourselves, but in that certainty, we're missing out on something as well.

George Saunders

I think that's important. Yeah, because I know I have something in my mind that's kind of like very willing to say, with all that's going on, what does it matter that you're doing this little good thing? And that's, I mean, I think that's really a form of despair to negate a small act because you haven't accomplished the big one.

George Saunders

I find that when I think I know the answer, it's actually a little uncomfortable because part of me knows I don't. I call it like the subtle pain of dogmatism. I think one definition of hysteria is arguing strenuously for something some part of you suspects isn't true.

Dan Harris

If you are intense enough about it, it can contain just about everything there is.

George Saunders

Everything has always been falling down around us. Only we were too alive to notice. Nothing lasts, not pride, not affection, not walls, not barns, nothing. I feel this in my body now, the falling apart, a kind of holy truth. I'm trying my best not to be terrified. And yet I am sometimes in the night.

George Saunders (from 'My House')

George Saunders' Writing Process

George Saunders
  1. Come to the work every day, responding from a gut level.
  2. Make changes and put them in, repeating the process over and over.
  3. Trust that wisdom beyond everyday thinking will emerge if you follow this process.
  4. Focus on small tweaks and micro-decisions, as these accumulate to create the larger work.
  5. Put aside notions of being a 'good writer' or making a political statement, sublimating instead to specific word choices and phrase improvements.
  6. Care for the reader's journey and the characters, anticipating objections and mitigating against negative feelings through revision.
  7. Be willing to cut or change ideas, not clinging to them because they make you feel clever or tickle your fancy.

Preparing for a Difficult Conversation

George Saunders
  1. Clear your mind of as many thoughts as possible, including projections, precepts, and 'shoulds'.
  2. Seek a moment of 'moral elevation' (e.g., observe something transcendent, listen to beautiful music) to open your heart and remind you of life's expansiveness and confusion.
  3. Go into the conversation with less 'BS,' wide open, not pushing your agenda, but waiting for the right moment to speak.

Using Provisional Language

Dan Klerman and Mudita Nisker (described by Dan Harris)
  1. Make your argument or express your point of view.
  2. Lace your comments with words like 'perhaps,' 'maybe,' or 'could'.
  3. This makes a real nod to the inherent uncertainty of what we know, making communication more intimate.
four years
Duration Dan Harris has been working with his communications coaches With Dan Klerman and Mudita Nisker
seven
Number of Russian authors George Saunders read for his previous book For 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain'
year and a half
Duration George Saunders read the seven Russian authors For 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain'
160
Number of different perspectives in George Saunders' novel 'Lincoln in the Bardo' Approximate number
7 billion
Approximate number of humans on Earth Mentioned in context of differing perspectives
nine million miles an hour
Speed George Saunders' brain goes Hyperbolic description of his anxious mind
two straight weeks
Duration George Saunders spent cleaning his house in New York Worked 15 hours a day
15 hours a day
Amount of time George Saunders worked cleaning his house During a two-week period
80%
Feeling of forgiveness by the world after admitting a mistake George Saunders' personal estimation
90%
Proportion of George Saunders' work process that is reaction to what's on the page Once he is 'into it'
four or five hours a day
Duration George Saunders is in a focused writing state When working well