Good Conflict | Amanda Ripley | An Episode From "On Being"
Krista Tippett interviews Amanda Ripley, author of "High Conflict," to explore the critical difference between healthy and destructive high conflict. They discuss actionable strategies and mindsets for navigating complex human interactions, moving from polarization to productive engagement.
Deep Dive Analysis
20 Topic Outline
Introduction to Amanda Ripley and High Conflict
Personal Origins of Attention to Conflict
Journalism's Role in Escalating Conflict Post-2016
Distinguishing Healthy Conflict from High Conflict
Human Behavior and the Limitations of Pure Reason
The Necessity and Benefits of Good Conflict
The Diabolical Nature and Consequences of High Conflict
How Simplicity and Complexity Affect Conflict
The Power of Identity Beyond Conflict
The Need for Psychologically Informed Reporting: Fear and Loneliness
The Role of Anxiety and Conflict Entrepreneurs
Counter-Intuitive Approaches to De-escalating Conflict
Looping as a Listening Technique
The Power of Better Questions in Conflict Resolution
The Euphoria of Good Conflict and Expanding the Circle
Is the Current Moment of Conflict New or a Repeat?
Reconciling with Those Who Dehumanize Others
Addressing Disagreement on Facts and Building Trust
The Bus Driver's Methodology for Interrupting Conflict
Conflict Resolution as Spiritual Work
6 Key Concepts
Healthy Conflict
This type of conflict is necessary for growth and transformation, involving a galaxy of emotions like frustration, anger, curiosity, and humor. It leads to movement, asking more questions, and increased satisfaction among participants.
High Conflict
A special kind of conflict where the conflict itself becomes the point, leading to an 'us versus them' dynamic. It makes people feel morally superior, baffled, and threatened by the other side, often causing harm to the very things they initially sought to protect.
Collapsed Complexity
A state where the full reality of a situation is reduced to a simplistic, often binary, narrative. This can be induced by traditional news stories that present only two sides, making people less curious and more prone to high conflict conversations.
Conflict Entrepreneurs
Individuals, politicians, or pundits who exploit the human tendency to seek simple explanations for anxiety and unease. They provide easy narratives that blame others, thereby inciting and embellishing high conflict for their own gain.
Looping
A listening technique where you listen for what is most important to the other person, distill it into elegant language, and then check for accuracy by asking, 'Is that right?' This injects humility and ensures mutual understanding beyond just the spoken words.
Fear and Loneliness Beat
A proposed journalistic approach that would focus on reporting and understanding the underlying emotions of humiliation, fear, and the need to belong. This aims to provide more psychologically informed reporting, acknowledging the full humanity of those covered and the consumers of journalism.
8 Questions Answered
Healthy conflict involves a range of emotions and leads to movement and understanding, while high conflict is characterized by an 'us versus them' dynamic where the conflict itself becomes the goal, often harming what participants care about most.
Journalism can escalate conflict by simplifying narratives into two-sided debates, which primes audiences for high conflict conversations rather than curiosity and complexity, and by focusing on outrage rather than nuance.
Yes, research shows that people exposed to complex news stories before a discussion are more likely to engage in good conflict, while those exposed to traditional two-sided stories are more prone to high conflict.
One effective method is to 'light up' or appeal to people's identities outside of the conflict, such as their role as a parent or child, which can create space for them to question assumptions and consider alternatives.
Useful questions include: 'What is oversimplified about this issue?', 'How has this conflict affected your life?', 'What do you think the other side wants?', 'What's the question nobody is asking?', 'Where do you feel torn?', and 'If this problem was solved, how would you know?'
While there are similarities to past conflicts, the current moment is unique because humanity has reached the upper limits of solving problems with 'us versus them' thinking due to increased interdependence and globalization.
While personal engagement might not always be possible or advisable, it's crucial not to give up on anyone completely, as even in extreme conflicts, people can be reached, often by others who share a different relationship with them.
Instead of directly refuting facts, one can acknowledge what the other person has said and then ask, 'How do you decide whom to trust?' This shifts the conversation to the underlying issue of trust, which is fundamental to resolving factual disagreements.
32 Actionable Insights
1. Counter Intuitive Responses in Conflict
Counter intuitive responses in conflict by asking yourself, “Could I do the opposite?” and practice this approach in low-stakes settings, as intuitive actions often worsen high conflict.
2. Practice “Looping” for Understanding
Practice “looping” by actively listening for what is most important to the other person, distilling it into elegant language, playing it back, and then asking “Is that right?” to confirm understanding and inject humility.
3. Use Better Questions to Complicate
Use specific, “better questions” to foster deeper understanding and move beyond simplistic debates, such as “What is oversimplified about this issue?”, “Where do you feel torn?”, or “If this problem were solved, how would you know?”.
4. Acknowledge Before Challenging
Before challenging someone’s statement or fact, acknowledge what they’ve said to ensure they feel heard, as being heard is a fundamental human need and can open space for dialogue.
5. Prioritize Building Trust
Prioritize and actively work on building trust in public discourse and relationships, as it is foundational for resolving conflict and overcoming disagreements on facts.
6. Embrace Good Conflict for Transformation
Embrace good conflict as a necessary and productive path to personal and societal transformation and growth, recognizing it involves a “galaxy of emotions” and leads to satisfying outcomes.
7. Avoid “Us vs. Them” Thinking
Abandon “us versus them” adversarial thinking for complex problems, as it is no longer effective in an interdependent and globalized world and perpetuates high conflict.
8. Recognize Fear as Anger’s Root
Recognize that fear and vulnerability often manifest as anger, and be aware of this dynamic in yourself and others, as anger is often rewarded but unhelpful in resolving conflict.
9. Don’t Corner People in Conflict
In conflict situations, ensure people have a literal or metaphorical “way out” and are not cornered, as this can de-escalate tension and allow for resolution.
10. Ask “What Happened?” Neutrally
When intervening in a conflict, ask “What happened?” with genuine curiosity and a neutral tone, rather than accusatory questions, to encourage reflection and de-escalation.
11. Offer Choices for Resolution
After listening, ask individuals in conflict “What do you want to do next?” and offer clear choices (e.g., “I could call someone, or you could talk with me and we get everyone safely to where they’re going”) to empower them and provide a path to resolution.
12. Cultivate Genuine Curiosity
When asking questions, cultivate genuine curiosity, as people can sense whether your interest is authentic or merely performative, and respond accordingly.
13. Value Pride, Fear, Belonging
When trying to understand human behavior, acknowledge and value the roles of pride, fear, and the need to belong, rather than solely relying on reasoning.
14. Broaden Conflict Perspective
When dealing with a specific conflict, broaden your perspective by examining similar conflict patterns in different contexts (e.g., divorces, gang violence) to gain new insights.
15. Practice Discretion in Relationships
In intimate relationships, practice discretion and choose not to blurt out everything you’re thinking, especially when you know it won’t be heard, to maintain the relationship.
16. Seek Complex Narratives
Actively seek out and engage with complex narratives, as exposure to complexity can prime curiosity and lead to better conflict resolution.
17. Avoid “Better Than/Less Than” Framing
Avoid framing situations with “better than” and “less than” comparisons, as this mindset can escalate conflict and hinder resolution.
18. Highlight Outside Identities
To help people disengage from high conflict, appeal to or highlight their identities outside of the conflict, such as their roles as parents or children.
19. Encourage Partisan Leaders to Step Out
Encourage partisan leaders and influencers to question and step out of high conflict, as this creates space for others to maintain their political identity while refusing political violence.
20. Use Resonant, Simple Messages
Use simple, resonant messages that appeal to core identities (like family) to invite people out of conflict, as demonstrated by the Colombian soccer ads.
21. Acknowledge Humiliation’s Role
Acknowledge and address the role of humiliation in conflict, as it is an underappreciated trigger for high conflict and essential for understanding the full story.
22. Question Simplistic “Both Sides” Views
Avoid the simplistic approach of merely presenting “both sides” in a conflict, as true complexity requires deeper understanding beyond a binary view.
23. Be Wary of Conflict Entrepreneurs
Be aware of your own difficulty in identifying the true causes of your fear or unhappiness, and be critical of “conflict entrepreneurs” who offer simplistic, blame-focused explanations.
24. Don’t Give Up on Anyone
Do not give up on people entirely, even if you personally cannot engage with them, as someone else might be able to reach them.
25. Foster Coexistence, Not Victory
In deeply entrenched conflicts, foster the understanding that opposing groups are not going away and must coexist, recognizing that there is “no winning” in the traditional sense.
26. Start with Willing Participants
When addressing conflict, start by engaging with those who are willing to participate, rather than waiting for “the right people” or focusing solely on extremists, and gradually expand the circle of engagement.
27. Ask “Whom Do You Trust?”
When confronted with information you believe to be false, instead of directly refuting it, ask “How do you decide whom to trust?” to explore the other person’s reasoning and sources.
28. Greet with Genuine Hospitality
Greet people with a genuine smile and a warm welcome, even if they don’t respond, as this act of hospitality can subconsciously foster a sense of friendliness and de-escalate potential conflict.
29. Integrate Positive Emotions
Integrate elements of joy, wonder, hope, dignity, and faith into conversations, especially those about conflict, as these are often missing but crucial for deeper engagement.
30. Reduce News Consumption Mindfully
Reduce news consumption if it contributes to anxiety or unease, and allow yourself to question traditional news formats, seeking out better ways to engage with information.
31. Support Electoral Reforms
Advocate for or support electoral reforms like rank-choice voting, which can reduce polarization by allowing for more nuanced choices beyond a binary system.
32. Check Out On Being Podcast
Check out the On Being podcast feed for new episodes dropping every Thursday, which explores what it means to be human and how to live better.
6 Key Quotes
Every single one I've followed all over the world, you end up harming the things you care most about. The thing you went into the conflict usually to protect without realizing it, right?
Amanda Ripley
We need turbulent city council meetings, strange date night dinners, protests and strikes clashes in boardrooms and guidance counselor offices. People who try to live without any conflict who never argue or mourn tend to implode sooner or later as any psychologist will tell you living without conflict. It's like living without love, cold and eventually unbearable.
Amanda Ripley
I think whenever there's a better than and a less than, there's always room for war.
Curtis Toler
Any intuitive thing you do to get out of the conflict will almost certainly make things worse. So now, I try, I don't always succeed, to take my first intuition and just ask myself, just ask, could I do the opposite? What would that look like? Because that's how you step out of that dance.
Amanda Ripley
It's impossible to survive without trust. So everybody trusts something or someone. So then it's about, well, why? Why that thing and not the other thing?
Trust Researcher (quoted by Amanda Ripley)
We never have the right people in the room at first. That's, you just, that's not how these things start. You know, you start with who will come into the room and then you slowly expand the circle and you're not going to get every single person.
Curtis Toler
1 Protocols
Bus Driver Dan's Conflict Interruption Methodology
Dan Christensen (described by Amanda Ripley)- Welcome passengers with a genuine smile and greeting upon boarding, even if they don't respond, to establish a friendly subconscious connection.
- When conflict erupts, pull the bus over and open all doors to ensure people do not feel cornered, metaphorically or literally.
- Get on the intercom and ask, 'What happened?' in a voice that genuinely seeks to know, forcing those in conflict to think for a second.
- Loop the person's response by acknowledging their emotion, e.g., 'I can tell you're really mad.'
- Ask, 'What do you want to do next?' to empower them to consider their next step.
- Offer a clear choice, such as 'I could call someone right now, which I'm going to have to do, or you could come up here and talk with me and we get everyone safely to where they're going,' providing a way out of the conflict situation.