How To Find Joy In an Anxious World | Sara Bareilles and Dacher Keltner

Aug 1, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dan Harris, singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles, and psychologist Dacher Keltner discuss their personal struggles with anxiety and panic attacks. They share various strategies, including medication, therapy, meditation, nature, and human connection, to manage anxiety and find sustainable wellness.

At a Glance
14 Insights
33m 33s Duration
13 Topics
5 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Panelists' Personal Experiences with Anxiety

Sara Bareilles' Journey with Anxiety and Medication

Dacher Keltner's History with Panic Attacks

Dan Harris's Panic Attack and Early Anxiety Triggers

Coping Mechanisms: Therapy, Connection, and MDMA Journey

The Role of Nature and Community in Calming Anxiety

Exposure Therapy for Panic Attacks

Meditation's Mechanism for Anxiety Relief

Therapy and Narrative Storytelling for Anxiety

Audience Q&A: Anxiety and Song Inspiration

Audience Q&A: Addressing Climate Dread in Youth

Audience Q&A: Diaphragmatic Breathing for Panic Attacks

Audience Q&A: Encouraging Meditation Practice

Vulnerability as Medicine

Sara Bareilles describes vulnerability as the single most helpful offering to oneself during hardship, bringing precious gifts, people, and artistic offerings into life by being brave enough to face and name what is difficult and true.

Vagus Nerve Activation

A physiological process that calms the body down, often targeted by practices like getting outdoors, listening to music, and meditation, which can counteract the cortisol-based profile of anxiety.

Exposure Therapy

A therapeutic approach where the only way out of fear is through it, requiring individuals to be exposed to the thing they are worried about to habituate to the physical sensations and mental activity associated with it.

Action Absorbs Anxiety

A concept suggesting that engaging in helpful actions, even if unrelated to the specific source of anxiety, can alleviate anxious feelings by leveraging the human feature of feeling good when doing good.

Narrative Storytelling in Therapy

The process of putting all the scenes of one's life into a coherent story, going back to early experiences, to explore the roots of anxiety and panic, similar to expressive writing practices.

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How can one find human connection to manage anxiety, even without being a celebrity?

By being willing to share vulnerability, as it is the medicine that brings precious gifts and people into one's life, allowing for deeper relationships.

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What is the mechanism by which meditation helps with anxiety and panic?

Meditation helps by building a relationship with 'what is,' teaching the ability to sit with difficult feelings rather than trying to fix or push them away, which can calm the amygdala and lower cortisol.

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How can therapy help manage anxiety by exploring early life memories?

Therapy can help by guiding individuals to construct a narrative of their life, connecting early experiences (like feelings of powerlessness or being cut off) to current anxiety or panic, as expressive writing practices do.

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Did Sara Bareilles' anxiety inspire her song 'Brave'?

Not exactly, but her experiences are woven into it; the song was written as a love letter to a friend dealing with anxiety, and the process of working with that anxiety helped Sara herself.

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How can we guide children through anxiety related to existential threats like climate change?

Approaches include turning to meditation, yoga, outdoor activities, and music, as well as encouraging action, as 'action absorbs anxiety,' even if unrelated to the specific issue.

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What is the most important thing to do during a panic attack?

The most important thing is to focus on diaphragmatic breathing, getting into plain physiology and out of cognitive thoughts, and learning to do this in every moment the attack starts.

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How can mental health providers encourage meditation without making it a stressful 'to-do'?

Providers can recommend starting small (e.g., one minute daily-ish), being flexible, and exploring various apps or in-person centers, emphasizing curiosity about its benefits rather than a dogmatic approach.

1. Embrace Vulnerability for Connection

Be willing to share your vulnerability and what is difficult or true, as this acts as medicine, bringing precious gifts, people, and deeper relationships into your life.

2. Practice “Action Absorbs Anxiety”

When feeling anxious, especially about large issues, take action even if it’s unrelated to the specific problem, such as holding a door, volunteering, or helping friends, because being useful benefits both yourself and the world.

3. Cultivate Human Connection

Prioritize and seek out human connection, as it is described as the single most helpful offering you can make towards yourself in times of hardship, given that humans are wired for connection.

4. Accept and Sit with Difficult Feelings

Instead of pushing away anxiety or panic, allow yourself to feel whatever you are experiencing, understanding that resistance makes these feelings persist and that they are physical sensations that you can sit with.

5. Get Outdoors Regularly

Spend time outdoors, as there are 21 identified pathways through which natural elements like clouds, sky, light, water sounds, and spring smells calm your nervous system.

6. Consider Therapy for Deeper Understanding

Engage in therapy to help put the scenes of your life into a coherent story, exploring early memories and primordial fears to understand and manage anxiety and panic.

7. Explore Medication with Professional Guidance

If struggling with severe anxiety, consider discussing medication options with a professional, as it can be a life-changing tool for managing symptoms.

8. Engage in Exposure Therapy for Panic

Deliberately and aggressively expose yourself to the specific situations or things you fear (e.g., small elevators, planes), as the theory suggests the only way out of fear is through it.

9. Practice Diaphragmatic Breathing During Panic

When a panic attack starts, focus on diaphragmatic breathing to address the physiology of the attack, rather than engaging with inner thoughts or cognition.

10. Integrate Meditative Practices

Regularly engage in meditation or activities with meditative qualities, such as listening to calming music or observing visual arts, to calm the amygdala, lower cortisol, and gain perspective.

11. Start Meditation Small and Flexibly

For those interested in meditation, begin with a small duration (e.g., one minute) and adopt a ‘daily-ish’ policy to build a habit without added stress, exploring apps or in-person centers for guidance.

12. Engage in Expressive Writing/Journaling

Practice expressive writing or journaling to put your life experiences into a narrative, which is beneficial for managing anxiety and depression.

13. Incorporate Regular Exercise

Make exercise a consistent part of your routine as a method for coping with and managing anxiety.

14. Seek Wisdom from Ancient Philosophies

Read texts from traditions like Lao Tzu or Buddhism to gain perspective and understand fundamental truths, such as ’life is hard,’ which can help in navigating difficult emotions.

Vulnerability for me is the medicine that has always brought the most precious gifts into my life.

Sara Bareilles

There is so much fear and there is so much support.

Sara Bareilles

I have a lot of cats, and these motherfuckers will bang at the door for hours and claws coming under the door, and, like, then sometimes I just open the door, they come in, sniff around, and leave. That's your emotions.

Dacher Keltner

Action absorbs anxiety.

Dan Harris

It's okay. By which he does not mean everything's fine. He means it's okay to feel whatever you're trying to push away.

Dan Harris

Exposure Therapy for Panic Attacks

Dan Harris
  1. Identify the specific triggers for panic (e.g., small elevators, airplanes).
  2. Work with a therapist to deliberately and aggressively expose oneself to these triggers.
  3. Gradually increase exposure, such as riding increasingly small elevators or taking short, unmedicated flights.
  4. Sit with the physical sensations and mental activity, understanding they are familiar and non-lethal.

Immediate Response to a Panic Attack

Felicitas Kord (clinical psychologist)
  1. Focus solely on breathing.
  2. Practice diaphragmatic breathing.
  3. Avoid engaging with cognition or inner thoughts; concentrate on physiology.

Starting a Meditation Practice

Dan Harris
  1. Start small, aiming for one minute of meditation.
  2. Adopt a 'daily-ish' policy to allow for flexibility and avoid self-judgment if a day is missed.
  3. Explore different meditation apps or in-person Buddhist centers to find a teaching style that resonates.
  4. Approach the practice with curiosity to 'see for yourself' if there is any benefit.
2 years
Years Sara Bareilles was on Lexapro Before stopping and then restarting after a period of grief and renewed anxiety.
a bit of 100
Number of full-blown panic attacks Dacher Keltner experienced In a few years, starting when he turned 30 and moved for his first job.
21 years
Years Dan Harris worked at ABC News Where he had a panic attack on live television.
3 years
Years since Dan Harris took an unmedicated flight He is working towards taking one as part of exposure therapy.
100,000 to 200,000 years
Duration of music's presence with humans Highlighting its ancient role in providing wisdom and perspective.