How To Make a Marriage Work | Chodo Robert Campbell and Koshin Paley Ellison (Co-Interviewed by Dr. Bianca Harris)
Dan and Bianca Harris speak with Zen priests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell about maintaining healthy romantic relationships. They discuss navigating early childhood trauma, understanding a partner's 'operating manual,' the role of humor, and the importance of individual therapeutic and spiritual work.
Deep Dive Analysis
13 Topic Outline
Introduction to Zen Priests Koshin and Chodo
Dan and Bianca's Relationship Dynamics and Communication
Chodo's Childhood Trauma and Need for Rules
Koshin's Approach to Chodo's Rules and Humor
Understanding Partner's Trauma: 'What Happened to You?'
Establishing Relationship Rules Over Time
Chodo's 'Feeling Place' and Pathologization
How Working with the Dying Informs Relationships
Practical Advice for Long-Lasting Relationships
The Importance of Individual Work and Shared Values
Developing a Flexible Relationship Operating Manual
New York Zen Center's Programs and Resources
Chodo's Memoir Working Titles
6 Key Concepts
MP and YP
A household terminology used by Dan and Bianca, where MP stands for 'my problem' and YP stands for 'your problem,' to categorize issues or responsibilities within their relationship.
Whiplash Willie / Negative Nigel
Affectionate names Koshin uses for Chodo's challenging personality aspects, particularly when he expresses anger or negativity, allowing them to address these patterns with humor rather than taking them personally.
Internal Family Systems (IFS)
A form of psychotherapy where individuals identify and name different aspects or 'parts' of their personality (e.g., jealous mode, anger mode) and develop relationships with them to foster inner harmony.
Black Bag (of trauma)
A concept, attributed to a poet and used by Koshin, referring to the invisible collection of past traumas and experiences that every individual carries, which significantly influences their behavior and relationships.
Intimate Terrorism
A concept by therapist Michael Vincent Miller, describing how in romantic relationships, one partner often fears abandonment while the other fears engulfment, leading to a dynamic where each person inadvertently triggers the other's deepest insecurities.
Operating Manual (for relationships)
A framework, adapted from Jerry Colonna's work, suggesting that partners should understand and communicate their individual patterns, needs, and ways of functioning to each other, creating a shared guide for navigating their relationship.
7 Questions Answered
Understanding each other's 'operating manual,' acknowledging past traumas, and using humor to name challenging personality aspects can help, but requires mutual agreement and compassion to be effective.
Understanding a partner's childhood trauma, often referred to as their 'black bag,' provides crucial context for their current behaviors and needs, shifting the perspective from 'what's wrong with you' to 'what happened to you.'
Creating affectionate names for challenging personality aspects (e.g., Whiplash Willie) when not in conflict can allow partners to invoke them during tense moments, helping to diffuse situations and prevent over-personalization.
Engaging in therapy, meditation, or other forms of self-exploration helps individuals understand their own patterns, turn down their ego, and show up more compassionately and skillfully for their partner.
Recognizing that challenging behaviors often stem from suffering, setting boundaries when necessary, and asking 'what's the story you're telling yourself right now?' can foster compassion and help partners see they are both struggling.
Koshin, drawing from his experience in the emergency department, emphasizes that expressing love and appreciation before leaving the house, as it might be the last opportunity, is a powerful way to care for one another and maintain a strong bond.
Romantic relationships can serve as a 'crucible for growth' by presenting opportunities to confront personal challenges, learn flexibility, and push beyond comfort zones, ultimately leading to greater happiness, strength, and health.
13 Actionable Insights
1. Understand Partner’s Past Trauma
Shift your perspective from asking ‘What’s the matter with you?’ to ‘What happened to you?’ to understand your partner’s past traumas and experiences, as this foundational empathy is crucial for navigating relationship challenges effectively.
2. Do Individual Self-Work
Engage in personal practices like therapy or meditation to ’turn down the I’ (ego) and reduce self-centeredness. This individual effort makes you more available and present for your partner in the relationship.
3. Cultivate Shared Growth Values
Ensure both partners share a genuine willingness and commitment to personal and relational growth. Actively discuss how you both want to evolve, as this shared value is critical to avoid complacency and foster vitality.
4. Understand Your Own ‘Operating Manual’
Dedicate time to individual self-work to understand your own ‘operating manual’ – your patterns, needs, and triggers. Recognize that your partner cannot solely resolve your traumas or figure out your issues for you.
5. Maintain a Flexible ‘Operating Manual’
While understanding your personal ‘operating manual’ is crucial, ensure it remains flexible and open to change. Allow your partner’s expectations and perspectives to challenge you and foster personal growth.
6. Seek Permission for Plans
Establish clear ‘rules of the road’ by asking your partner for their input or permission before making plans or changes that affect them. This practice demonstrates respect, ensures consultation, and prevents triggering feelings of lack of agency.
7. Name Partner’s Inner Parts
Develop affectionate, agreed-upon names for your partner’s challenging inner ‘parts’ or aspects of their personality (e.g., ‘Whiplash Willie’). This technique, when used outside of conflict, helps depersonalize issues and prevents taking their reactions personally during disagreements.
8. Practice Compassion and Boundaries
Cultivate genuine compassion for your partner when they are suffering, even if they are lashing out. Establish clear boundaries or rules to address unacceptable behavior while still expressing care and a desire to reconnect.
9. Question Your Internal Narrative
In moments of struggle, utilize the tool of asking yourself and your partner, ‘What’s the story you’re telling yourself right now?’ This helps both parties recognize when they are caught in a narrative, fostering understanding and compassion.
10. Embrace Shared Discomfort
Be willing to experience discomfort and awkwardness together in your relationship. Viewing these moments as a mark of love allows you to care for one another through challenging, uncertain times.
11. View Relationship as Growth Opportunity
Reframe romantic relationships not just as a path to ‘happily ever after,’ but as a ‘crucible for growth’ that requires active work. This perspective highlights opportunities to become happier, stronger, and healthier individuals through shared challenges.
12. Use Humor in Tough Moments
Employ humor during difficult or uncomfortable relationship moments, as it helps maintain authenticity, love, and connection when challenges arise. This allows you to stay in relationship even when things are tricky.
13. Express Love Before Parting
Make it a habit to express your love to your partner before leaving the house, perhaps by holding their face and saying ‘I love you.’ This practice acknowledges the preciousness of each moment and ensures they know exactly how you feel.
7 Key Quotes
If you're going to change something, let me know or ask me first, because I can't take, you know, it's not the start of the word. It's really triggering for me.
Chodo Robert Campbell
I used to take Whiplash Willie and Negative Nigel so personally, when he's just feeling angry or just feeling negative or whatever that is. And I used to, because of my history, feel like I did something wrong.
Koshin Paley Ellison
Often we ask, what's the matter with you? And instead, we should be asking, what happened to you?
Dan Harris
I come from this very deep feeling place, Koshin comes from this very deep place of intellect and also feeling, but Koshin has this depth of feelings too. Not as deep as mine, you understand, but...
Chodo Robert Campbell
I never leave the house without holding his face and telling him how much I love him. Because I'm very aware from working in the emergency department, how many people, loved ones or friends would come in and be like, I can't believe the last conversation we had.
Koshin Paley Ellison
Your partner is not there to sort of receive your trauma and help you figure it out. You know, it took a long time for me to understand in a way that, that your partner can't, can't be everything for you. It shouldn't be everything for you. You have to figure out this shit on your own, but also not to sort of indulge it so much that you aren't open to change and growth.
Bianca Harris
Romantic relationships are like the crucible for growth... there's a lot for you in this work. If you're looking to get happier, get stronger, get healthier, there's an opportunity right there in your relationship.
Dan Harris
1 Protocols
Daily Relationship Check-in
Koshin Paley Ellison- Hold your partner's face.
- Tell them how much you love them.
- Do this every single morning before leaving the house.