Joseph Goldstein + Mark Epstein On: How To Handle Unwanted Experiences, How Not To Waste Your Suffering & The Overlap Between Buddhism + Therapy
In this special live event, Joseph Goldstein and Dr. Mark Epstein join Dan Harris to celebrate 10 years of 10% Happier. They discuss how to navigate suffering, practical applications of meditation, the intersection of Buddhism and psychotherapy, and the concept of two levels of reality.
Deep Dive Analysis
12 Topic Outline
Dan Harris's Journey to Meditation and Core Insights
Joseph Goldstein's Three-Month Silent Retreat Experience
Reframing Suffering as a Practice Opportunity
The Power of Gratitude in Facing Difficulties
Three Walking Meditation Exercises for Daily Life
Applying Retreat Insights to Everyday Challenges
Joseph Goldstein on Dealing with Political Stress
Dr. Mark Epstein's Path to Buddhism and Psychotherapy
The Interplay Between Buddhism and Psychotherapy
Understanding Clinging and the Concept of Selflessness
The Buddhist Concept of Two Levels of Reality
Guided Loving Kindness Meditation
5 Key Concepts
Don't waste your suffering
A phrase encouraging individuals to use moments of suffering as opportunities for mindfulness and curiosity, to observe habitual patterns, and to learn how to untangle mental difficulties rather than being consumed by them.
Dukkha (unwanted experiences)
A Pali word often translated as suffering, but defined in the episode as 'the inevitability of unwanted experiences.' It encompasses any difficulty or challenge that is universally true in human life.
Behind the waterfall
A metaphor (attributed to Jon Kabat-Zinn) for observing one's thoughts and distractions with non-judgmental remove, rather than being caught up in them. It signifies gaining perspective and space from the constant mental chatter.
Selflessness
The Buddhist understanding that the self does not exist in the way we imagine it. Realizing this helps in not taking all thoughts, urges, and emotions so personally, fostering a less contracted identification with the body and mind.
Two levels of reality
A Buddhist concept distinguishing between relative reality (the everyday world where things appear solid and distinct, like a desk or individual people) and ultimate reality (where things are seen as impermanent, interconnected, and composed of subatomic particles). Both truths are considered to exist simultaneously.
7 Questions Answered
Joseph Goldstein explains that retreats serve as a 'laboratory of your mind,' offering a chance to explore every part of oneself, observe patterns that cause suffering, and learn practical ways to free the mind from difficulties.
Joseph Goldstein suggests consciously switching to a 'gratitude channel' by focusing on the many blessings in one's life, which can enlarge perspective and lead to more expansive and wholesome mind states.
Joseph Goldstein recommends three walking exercises: being aware of walking through space, walking with the frame 'I'm walking in a dream,' and walking with the frame 'I'm walking through the mind,' all of which can be done at a normal pace to shift perspective and ground awareness.
Joseph Goldstein suggests gaining a larger perspective by reading history to see events as part of cycles, or by adopting a Carl Sagan 'Blue Dot' view of Earth. He also recommends cultivating compassion for those causing suffering, recognizing their underlying ignorance.
Dr. Mark Epstein explains that both address the 'untrained mind' and neurotic patterns. Meditation fosters intrapersonal awareness, while psychotherapy provides an interpersonal 'playground' where relational patterns and clinging can be observed and released with the help of a therapist.
Joseph Goldstein views therapy as similar to meditation interviews, where a skilled therapist holds a non-judgmental space for individuals to express their difficulties, which is a very healing aspect of the process.
Selflessness means understanding that the 'self' does not exist in the fixed, solid way we imagine it. This realization helps individuals not take their thoughts, urges, and emotions so personally, fostering a more open and less contracted state of being.
23 Actionable Insights
1. Utilize Suffering for Learning
When experiencing suffering or unwanted experiences, view them as opportunities to be mindful, curious, and learn about your habitual patterns, taking responsibility for your mind’s reaction to free yourself from difficulty.
2. Reframe Issues Positively
Practice reframing problems, such as anxiety as excitement or failure as experimentation, to view them in a more helpful light and create an opportunity to learn.
3. Meditate to Manage Inner Voice
Practice meditation to develop a new relationship with your inner narrator, allowing you to respond wisely to situations rather than reacting blindly to neurotic obsessions.
4. Cultivate Happiness as a Skill
Understand that happiness is a skill that can be developed and changed, rather than a fixed factory setting.
5. Switch to Gratitude Channel
When facing difficulties or unwanted experiences, consciously switch your mind to a ‘gratitude channel’ by focusing on the blessings and good things in your life to enlarge your perspective and uplift your feelings.
6. Express Gratitude to Universe
Regularly express gratitude to the universe for the blessings in your life, as this simple act can be meaningful and uplifting, transferring positive feelings to interactions with others.
7. View Distraction as Success
When meditating and noticing distraction, consider it a moment of success rather than failure, as this awareness helps you become familiar with your mind’s workings and observe thoughts non-judgmentally.
8. Practice Loving Kindness Meditation
Sit comfortably with a straight spine and closed or softly gazing eyes. Envision a series of beings (easy to love, yourself, mentor, neutral, mildly annoying, all beings) and send them the phrases: ‘May you be happy, May you be healthy, May you be safe, and May you live with ease,’ connecting the words to the image or felt sense without needing to feel a certain way.
9. Practice Three Walking Meditations
Engage in walking meditation using three frames: 1) Be aware of walking through space, letting your mind become space; 2) Ask ‘Am I dreaming?’ while walking to shift perspective from body identification; 3) Frame your walk as moving through the mind, making awareness the focus.
10. Cultivate Body Movement Awareness
Practice formal walking meditation to develop a habit of being naturally grounded in the movement of your body, even in busy environments, without particular effort.
11. Develop Basic Stillness
Practice developing basic stillness and concentration to avoid being constantly caught up in thoughts and distractions.
12. Adopt Historical/Cosmic Perspective
When faced with overwhelming issues like politics, adopt a historical perspective to see that similar challenges have occurred for millennia, or a cosmic perspective (like Carl Sagan’s Blue Dot) to enlarge your view and avoid getting caught up in thinking the current moment is a disaster.
13. Cultivate Compassion for Difficult People
When dealing with people who upset you, try to cultivate compassion by recognizing their potential suffering and the unskillful actions that stem from ignorance, rather than focusing solely on their actions.
14. Seek Non-Judgmental Holding
Seek out relationships, whether with a meditation teacher or a therapist, where you can express your inner experiences and difficulties without judgment, as this non-judgmental holding is very healing.
15. Use Therapy for Relational Awareness
Engage in psychotherapy to apply the self-awareness gained through meditation to interpersonal relationships, using the therapeutic relationship as a ‘playground’ to observe and understand your own patterns in action.
16. Identify Clinging in Therapy
Utilize therapy to identify instances of ‘clinging’ in your behavior and thought patterns, as becoming aware of it can help you release it and feel better.
17. Explore the ‘Self’ in Therapy
Use therapy as a means to explore and understand how the ‘self’ appears in your own experience, which is a prerequisite for understanding the concept of selflessness.
18. Grasp Two Levels of Reality
Understand the Buddhist concept of two levels of reality (relative and ultimate truth) simultaneously, which can help you avoid taking your thoughts, urges, and emotions too personally.
19. Foster Creative Silence
Understand that the deepest creative expression often emerges from a silent, quiet mind rather than the thinking mind, suggesting that practices that quiet the mind can enhance creativity.
20. Engage in Writing Retreats
Consider doing writing retreats where you alternate between sitting meditation and writing, as this can foster deep creative expression from a silent mind.
21. Supercharge Growth with Community
Engage in personal growth, self-development, or spiritual work with other people, as this communal aspect can supercharge the effort.
22. Undertake Silent Retreats for Self-Exploration
Engage in silent meditation retreats to explore every part of your mind, gaining perspective and space to understand patterns that cause suffering and bring happiness.
23. Prioritize Remembering Practices
Acknowledge that remembering to apply practices like gratitude or mindfulness in daily life is often the hardest part, and make an effort to do so.
7 Key Quotes
Don't waste your suffering.
Joseph Goldstein
I knew myself completely, no part left out.
Izumi (quoted by Joseph Goldstein)
The inevitability of unwanted experiences.
Unnamed source (quoted by Joseph Goldstein)
We're 100% responsible for whether our mind is suffering in the face of unwanted experiences.
Joseph Goldstein
Meditation is something is intrapersonal, something that you're doing with your own mind... psychotherapy is interpersonal.
Dr. Mark Epstein
You think you're real. You are real. You're just not really real.
Elderly Mongolian monk (quoted by Dr. Mark Epstein)
Inner peace, motherfuckers.
Dan Harris
2 Protocols
Three Exercises for Slowing Down (Walking Meditation)
Joseph Goldstein- Walk at a normal speed, focusing on being aware of walking through space, allowing one's mind to become a space.
- Walk back and forth with the frame 'I'm walking in a dream,' shifting perspective to the dream the body is moving through.
- Walk back and forth with the frame 'I'm walking through the mind,' making awareness the main focus and seeing the body moving through the field of awareness.
Loving Kindness Meditation
Alexander Harris- Sit comfortably with a reasonably straight spine, closing eyes or gazing softly at a neutral spot.
- Envision 'someone that's easy to love' (e.g., a kid, pet) and send them the phrases: 'May you be happy,' 'May you be healthy,' 'May you be safe,' and 'May you live with ease.'
- Bring to mind an image of yourself (e.g., as a little kid or sitting in the chair) and send yourself the phrases: 'May you be happy,' 'May you be healthy,' 'May you be safe,' and 'May you live with ease.'
- Envision a 'mentor, a benefactor' (e.g., a teacher, parent, or admired public figure) and send them the phrases: 'May you be happy,' 'May you be healthy,' 'May you be safe,' and 'May you live with ease.'
- Envision a 'neutral person' (e.g., a barista, someone at the office) and send them the phrases: 'May you be happy,' 'May you be healthy,' 'May you be safe,' and 'May you live with ease.'
- Envision a 'mildly annoying person' and send them the phrases: 'May you be happy,' 'May you be healthy,' 'May you be safe,' and 'May you live with ease.'
- Envision 'all beings everywhere' (e.g., the pale blue dot or a sense of omnidirectionality) and send them the phrases: 'May we all be happy,' 'May we all be safe,' 'May we all be healthy,' and 'May we all live with ease.'
- When ready, open your eyes and blink back into the room.