Moby and Google's Bill Duane at Wanderlust Hollywood (Live!)
Dan Harris and Jeff Warren host Bill Duane (Google's Superintendent of Well-Being) and musician Moby to discuss overcoming meditation frustrations, making practice accessible, and the profound benefits of mindfulness.
Deep Dive Analysis
14 Topic Outline
Introduction to Guests and Google's Well-Being Initiatives
Challenges and Counterintuitive Nature of Meditation Practice
Addressing Inconsistency and Maintaining Meditation Practice
Google's Internal Research on Meditation Program Benefits
Bill Duane's Personal Journey into Meditation
Google's Responsibility and Wise Relationship with Technology
Strategies for Managing Fight-or-Flight Reactions
Comparing Solo App-Based Meditation with Group Practice
Working with Physical Pain and Anger During Meditation
Moby's Meditation History and Perspective on 'Being Good' at it
Meditation's Role in Healing Past Pain and Sobriety
Re-evaluating Ambition and Happiness Through Meditation
The Shared Human Experience and Solidarity in Suffering
Confronting the 'Self' and the Illusion of Individual Identity
6 Key Concepts
Radically Counterintuitive Practice
Meditation and mindfulness are described as radically counterintuitive because they suggest actions like sitting silently to get more done, or turning towards suffering, which go against typical human instincts to avoid discomfort or constantly be productive.
Micro Hits
Refers to very short increments of meditation practice, even as brief as one minute. While not extensively researched, these micro hits are seen as an 'on-ramp' to building a regular, longer practice, especially for high achievers who might otherwise feel self-critical for not meeting longer practice goals.
Kindfulness
A term coined by Ajahn Brahm, it emphasizes approaching one's experience—good, bad, or indifferent—with a sense of kindness and curiosity. This approach helps in building resilience by training one to be with difficult experiences without self-judgment.
Neuroplasticity and Meditation
The brain's ability to change its structure and function through repeated thought patterns. Meditation is presented as a way to strengthen the prefrontal cortex, enabling individuals to quiet the fight-or-flight response on demand when faced with challenges.
Enlightenment as Acceptance
Moby's perspective suggests that enlightenment is not a mystical transcendence or an arrival at a perfect state, but rather an awareness of the human condition and a different relationship to it, based on kindness and acceptance of oneself as one truly is.
Illusion of Self
The idea that the 'self' we perceive is a chimerical construct, an illusion. While acknowledging its illusory nature, the discussion emphasizes treating this perceived self with kindness and gentleness, rather than trying to 'crush' it, as it is a fundamental aspect of human experience.
8 Questions Answered
People struggle because meditation is radically counterintuitive, and they often set unrealistic goals, leading to self-criticism. Short, frequent practices ('micro hits') and external support structures like community or ongoing inspiration can help overcome this hump.
Internal research at Google showed that meditation programs led to increases in overall well-being, ability to detach from work, and self-awareness, alongside decreases in impatience and emotional reactivity, demonstrating its positive impact on managing work-related stress.
Individuals can use phone settings to prioritize contacts and quiet disturbances, and intentionally segment work from non-work by, for example, not having work email on their personal phone. Acknowledging the magnetic pull of devices and using it as an area of inquiry for self-awareness is also suggested.
This ability is developed through consistent practice, starting with easy circumstances and gradually building capacity. Even when facing significant distress, practicing with small annoyances can create a surprising reserve to turn towards what is most difficult with compassion.
App-based meditation is great for daily maintenance and fitting practice into regular life, while group settings, teachers, and retreats offer structure, accountability, community, and deeper immersion. A mix of these approaches is often recommended, though caution is advised against mixing too many different traditions simultaneously.
One can try meditating in different positions to reduce overwhelming pain, or directly 'lean into' the discomfort to feel its edges. For anger, it's crucial to approach it with kind curiosity, noticing where it's felt in the body and what triggers it, rather than viewing it as a sign of failed practice.
Meditation can change one's relationship towards ambition, shifting focus from external material success (which often leads to misery) to an evidence-based understanding that desired outcomes don't necessarily bring lasting happiness. It encourages a perspective where nothing changes except one's internal view.
Recognizing the self as an illusion can be empowering by fostering kindness and gentleness towards oneself, rather than self-punishment for living in this 'world of illusion.' It promotes acceptance of shared human vulnerabilities and struggles, leading to solidarity rather than isolation.
31 Actionable Insights
1. Cultivate Intrinsic Practice Motivation
Ask yourself why mindfulness is an intrinsic part of who you are, rather than just something you want. Cultivate a deep curiosity to know the truth of your inner experience, even if it’s unpleasant, as this intrinsic motivation helps overcome discomfort and boredom in practice.
2. Confront Self with Compassion
Confront your true self with compassion and gentleness, acknowledging your suffering, vulnerability, and struggles, alongside your joy and strength. Then, recognize that these core human experiences apply to everyone, fostering connection.
3. Embrace Kindness & Acceptance Now
Redefine “enlightenment” not as a mystical transcendence, but as cultivating a different relationship with your current human condition, based on kindness and acceptance, right where you are.
4. Practice Kindfulness with Experience
Cultivate “kindfulness” by observing all experiences—good, bad, or indifferent—with a sense of gentle curiosity and acceptance (“huh, all right, so this is going on”). This builds resilience by training you to be with whatever arises.
5. Curiously Explore Difficult Emotions
Discard the idea that meditation must always be blissful; instead, cultivate “kind curiosity” about difficult emotions like anger. Turn towards them, notice where they manifest physically in your body, and learn their “tells” to inform wiser actions.
6. Hindrances as Growth Information
Recognize that hindrances and difficult emotions encountered during meditation are not failures, but rather fantastic information for personal growth. Avoid viewing them as opportunities for self-judgment.
7. Allow Imperfection in Meditation
Let go of the need to be perfect in meditation and instead learn to listen, trust, and allow whatever arises, even intense emotions like rage. This process can lead to a profound journey of self-discovery.
8. Avoid Self-Criticism in Meditation
Do not use meditation as an opportunity to be critical of yourself or believe you’re not doing it correctly. Accept that your experience is valid, as no one is “better” at meditating than you are.
9. Resume Practice Without Self-Judgment
If you fall off your meditation practice, give yourself a break and avoid self-labeling as a “failed meditator.” Nothing is lost; simply start again, just as you would return to your breath after being distracted during a session.
10. Don’t Aim to Be “Good” at Meditation
Do not approach meditation with the goal of “being good at it,” as this mindset can lead to smugness or self-judgment. The practice is not about achievement.
11. Recognize Shared Human Experience
Cultivate a sense of solidarity by recognizing that your fears, suffering, and anxieties are not unique, but are shared human experiences. This perspective fosters connection and can be a beautiful part of practice.
12. Approach Self-Illusion with Kindness
While acknowledging the self as an illusion, approach this understanding with kindness and gentleness, rather than self-punishment or trying to “crush” it. This illusion is a fundamental, shared aspect of the human experience.
13. Recognize & Detach from Primal Impulses
Recognize that many strong emotions and behaviors, like the fight-or-flight response, are evolutionary remnants from our “monkey brain” that no longer serve us in modern contexts. Understand that you don’t always have to act on these primal impulses.
14. Shift Your Perspective
Recognize that true change comes from shifting your perspective on circumstances, rather than expecting external events or achievements to fundamentally alter your internal state.
15. External Gains Don’t Alter Inner State
Understand that achieving external goals or getting what you want often does not fundamentally change your internal emotional state or bring the expected lasting happiness.
16. Re-evaluate Goals Based on Others’ Happiness
When pursuing goals, observe those who have achieved similar material success and assess their actual happiness. This can help re-evaluate the assumption that external achievements will lead to a different, happier emotional state.
17. Practice Micro Meditation Hits
Even very short meditation sessions, or “micro hits” (e.g., one minute), are valuable. They can build an on-ramp to a more regular practice and prevent self-criticism from not meeting longer practice goals.
18. Start with Shorter Meditation Increments
For those struggling with consistent meditation, especially high achievers, offer shorter practice increments or integrate them more into daily routines. This acts as an “on-ramp” to regular practice, reducing the barrier to entry.
19. Practice in Easy Circumstances
To develop the ability to manage difficult emotions “on demand,” consistently practice mindfulness in easy circumstances. This builds your capacity and resilience for when challenges become much harder.
20. Investigate Pain & Anger Triggers
When experiencing pain or strong emotions like anger during meditation, lean into them directly. Notice the exact moment they arise and investigate what specifically triggers them, exploring the underlying cause-and-effect chain.
21. Adjust Posture for Pain
If physical pain is a significant barrier to meditation, try meditating lying down or experiment with different postures to find a position where the pain is not overwhelming. Adjustments can be made for sleepiness if lying down.
22. Set Strict Tech Boundaries
Configure your phone to limit disturbances by setting a priority list for contacts and specific times you can be reached. Disable work email notifications, requiring you to actively check it, to create a wise relationship with your tools.
23. Inquire into Discomfort & Distraction
When you feel discomfort or the urge to distract yourself (e.g., checking your phone in an elevator, keeping the TV on), use it as an opportunity for mindful inquiry. Ask “Huh, fascinating, what’s up with that?” to explore your internal experience without judgment.
24. Join a Supportive Practice Community
Actively seek out and join a supportive community for your meditation practice, beyond just accountability buddies. A community provides a sense of belonging and people who will miss you and reach out, offering deeper support.
25. Build Practice Accountability
To maintain a consistent meditation practice, establish accountability structures by practicing with a community or friends. This provides support and encouragement.
26. Seek Ongoing Practice Inspiration
To stay connected to the purpose of meditation, seek ongoing inspiration from resources like good books or podcasts. This reminds you of the practice’s value when it might otherwise feel pointless.
27. Adopt a Mixed Practice Approach
Combine various meditation resources for a well-rounded practice: use apps, books, or online videos for daily engagement, and supplement these with community involvement, guidance from a teacher, and occasional retreats if accessible.
28. Balance Core & Maintenance Practice
Find a core meditation practice or tradition that deeply resonates with you, viewing daily app-based or opportunistic “micro hits” (e.g., on public transit) as maintenance. Avoid “getting too crazy” with mixing too many different styles.
29. Offer Mindfulness, Don’t Force
If introducing mindfulness or meditation in an organization, make it available and open the door, but do not force it on people. This non-coercive approach helps avoid alienating individuals and allows them to opt-in.
30. Avoid Lecturing on Meditation
Do not lecture people about meditation or mindfulness, whether they are employees or friends. Lecturing can be counterproductive and may lead to negative reactions.
31. Support Parent-Friendly Meditation
Advocate for or seek out meditation programs and retreats that are explicitly designed to accommodate people with small children, such as those allowing parents to go home at night. This makes practice accessible to more individuals.
7 Key Quotes
If your heart is suffering, turn towards it, right? It's radically counterintuitive.
Bill Duane
If you use this device, you will be happier and more effective and more compassionate. And then the first thing you do is you start hitting yourself over the head with the device.
Bill Duane
My inner voice was really self-critical. Like, what my inner voice says to me, if you guys said it to me, I would totally punch you in the face.
Bill Duane
I would rather know the truth. Right? Even though it's an unpleasant thing to realize that I have a very strong, critical voice, I would rather know than not know.
Bill Duane
Enlightenment is the awareness that no one has ever transcended the human condition. Enlightenment, I believe, is right you where you are right now. It's just having a different relationship to it that's based on like kindness and acceptance.
Moby
Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. And after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. Like, nothing changes except your perspective.
Moby
The most wonderful... one of the most wonderful things in the practice is confronting yourself as you actually are and being able to see it in a compassionate, gentle way.
Moby