Scott Edelstein, When Spiritual Leaders 'Stray'

Jul 11, 2018 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Scott Edelstein, author of "Sex and the Spiritual Teacher," discusses the abuse of power by spiritual leaders. He explores how teachers can stray, the dangers of narcissists and sociopaths in leadership, and how practitioners can develop discernment to choose healthy student-teacher relationships.

At a Glance
20 Insights
1h 5m Duration
15 Topics
7 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Spiritual Teacher Misconduct & Guest Scott Edelstein

Listener Voicemails: Habit Formation and Phone Use

Scott Edelstein's Entry into Meditation Practice

Meditation Beyond Utilitarian Benefits and 'Mystical' Experiences

Early Intensive Zen Training and Continued Practice

Motivation for Writing 'Sex and the Spiritual Teacher'

The Osho (Rajneesh) Cult and Abuse of Power

Categories of Spiritual Teachers Who Abuse Power

Paradox of Wisdom and Misconduct: Chogyam Trungpa Example

Enlightenment as a Non-Permanent State and Human Fallibility

Potential Factors for Teacher Misconduct: Mental Illness, Addiction, Editing

Personal Experience with a Teacher Who 'Slipped'

Damage from Spiritual Teacher Misconduct and Seduction Techniques

Guidance for Choosing a Spiritual Teacher: Building Discernment

Red Flags and Positive Indicators for Spiritual Teachers

News Peg

An event in current news that provides a timely reason or context for a specific story or discussion, allowing it to be 'pegged' to current events.

Cue, Routine, Reward

A framework for understanding habit formation, where a 'cue' triggers a 'routine' behavior, which then leads to a 'reward.' This cycle can be hacked to substitute undesirable routines with beneficial ones.

The Self as a Construct

The idea that the notion of 'I' or a separate, fixed self is a 'crazy construct' that can break down through meditation practice, revealing nuances of reality that were always present.

False Brahmin

A term used to describe someone who believes they are entitled to do whatever they want, acting as if they belong to a privileged class where rules do not apply to them.

Enlightenment as Non-Permanent

The understanding that enlightenment is not a fixed, permanent state or a threshold that, once crossed, prevents one from 'slipping back,' but rather a dynamic experience that can fluctuate.

Crazy Wisdom

A justification used by some spiritual teachers for their inappropriate or abusive behavior, claiming it is a higher form of teaching that students are not yet advanced enough to understand.

Wannabe King Theory

A theoretical concept suggesting that a certain percentage of human beings are naturally predisposed to become all-encompassing leaders (kings or queens), and another percentage has a similar predilection to follow them, often not based on cognitive reasoning.

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What books are recommended for habit formation and behavioral change?

Gretchen Rubin's 'The Four Tendencies' is recommended for understanding different personality types in relation to habit formation, including how to work with children's tendencies.

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How can one make more time for meditation, especially when feeling bored?

One listener successfully substituted phone-checking (routine) for meditation when feeling bored (cue), finding it a more fruitful use of time than 'voluntary misery' from social media.

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What is the deeper purpose of meditation beyond its utilitarian benefits?

Meditation can lead to nonverbal, realistic experiences, such as recognizing the self as a construct, seeing the breakdown of subject and object, and understanding the lack of personal control over life's moments.

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Why do spiritual teachers, even seemingly wise ones, sometimes engage in abusive behavior?

Humans are contradictory; it's possible to be both wise and foolish simultaneously. Factors like mental illness, addiction (e.g., alcoholism), or the influence of editors/ghostwriters on their published works can also play a role.

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Is enlightenment a permanent state once achieved?

No, enlightenment is not a permanent state or a threshold that, once crossed, prevents one from 'slipping back'; it's a dynamic experience that can fluctuate, much like other human experiences.

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What kind of damage can spiritual teachers cause when they 'stray' or victimize students?

The damage varies depending on the individual and the teacher's actions, but it often involves violation of trust, manipulation, and the use of authority to exploit students, sometimes under the guise of 'crazy wisdom'.

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How can one choose a healthy spiritual teacher and avoid abusive ones?

Build personal discernment, take things slowly, observe the teacher's lifestyle and their students, and look for signs that the teacher prioritizes your interests over their own. Red flags include demanding money, isolating the community, using inner language, demanding sacrifice that hurts health/mental health, or strict obedience. Positive signs include a sense of humor and the ability to admit mistakes.

1. Avoid Self-Serving Spiritual Teachers

A trustworthy spiritual teacher prioritizes being of service to you; if they primarily seek your money, attention, or other personal gain, consider it a yellow or red flag.

2. Demand Humility from Teachers

Run away from spiritual teachers who cannot admit fault, say ‘I’m sorry,’ or acknowledge mistakes, as this indicates a critical lack of humility and potential for abuse.

3. Watch for Teacher Red Flags

Be highly cautious of spiritual teachers or groups that demand excessive money, isolate their community, use exclusive jargon, require sacrifices detrimental to your health, or demand strict obedience.

4. Evaluate Teacher’s Students & Life

When choosing a spiritual teacher, observe their lifestyle and the character of their long-term students, as these are strong indicators of their true influence and the value of their teachings.

5. Take Time Choosing a Teacher

Do not rush into a deep commitment with a spiritual teacher; observe them over several months to discern if the value they offer is genuine and sustainable, similar to a serious relationship.

6. Research Teachers Online

Use the internet to Google potential spiritual teachers or leaders. Trust recurring comments or patterns of feedback from multiple sources, as this collective wisdom can be a reliable indicator.

7. Seek Teacher’s Self-Humor

Look for a spiritual teacher who possesses a sense of humor about themselves, as this trait often indicates humility and a healthy, grounded perspective.

8. Question All Teachings

Do not follow any teaching solely because a person said it or it’s in a book; question it, test it against your own experience, and only adopt what is demonstrated to be wholesome for you.

9. Teacher’s Role: Human Growth

Understand that a spiritual teacher’s primary role is to help you become more human, wise up, grow up, and open up, not to solve your personal life decisions like job choices or relationship issues.

10. Recognize Contradictory Wisdom

Accept that even highly wise individuals can exhibit foolish or contradictory behavior simultaneously, and avoid assuming wisdom in one area guarantees impeccable conduct in all others.

11. Replace Unfulfilling Habits

Identify the ‘cue, routine, reward’ cycle of unfulfilling habits (e.g., boredom leading to phone use) and substitute the routine with a beneficial activity like meditation for a more fulfilling reward.

12. Evaluate ‘Voluntary Misery’

Regularly assess your indulgences to determine if they genuinely bring happiness or contribute to ‘voluntary misery’; if an indulgence makes you miserable, consider stopping it.

13. Understand Your Habit Tendencies

Use frameworks like Gretchen Rubin’s ‘The Four Tendencies’ to classify your habit formation style, then apply tailored tips for yourself and your children to instill healthy habits.

14. Meditate for Intrinsic Joy

Practice meditation not just for utilitarian benefits like stress reduction, but also for the intrinsic joy of existence and the deeper, non-verbal experiences that emerge over time.

15. Integrate Daily Meditation

Make meditation a consistent, almost daily part of your life, allowing it to become a natural way of being rather than a separate, intense endeavor.

16. Acknowledge Lack of Control

Practice a daily acknowledgement that you are not in control, that every moment is fresh and new, and that you need the help of the entire universe; this fosters presence and acceptance.

17. Embrace Multifactorial Growth

Recognize that personal growth and positive behavioral changes are often the result of multiple factors, such as maturation, meditation, and supportive relationships.

18. Choose a Supportive Partner

Select a life partner who encourages and inspires you to be your best self, as this relationship can significantly contribute to your personal growth and well-being.

19. Try Meditation for Stress

Consider trying meditation if you experience high energy, nervousness, stress, or anxiety, as it might feel intuitively right and help alleviate these feelings.

20. Enlightenment is Not Permanent

Understand that enlightenment is not a fixed, permanent state but a dynamic experience where profound insights can be followed by ‘slipping back’; this perspective helps manage expectations.

You could make a great argument for how sex reduces stress. But that is not the best argument for sex, right? Let's talk about procreation of the species. Let's talk about intimacy. Let's talk about joy and so on.

Scott Edelstein

It is entirely possible to be quite wise and quite foolish at the same time.

Scott Edelstein

Enlightenment is not some permanent state because nothing is a permanent state.

Scott Edelstein

If it looks like that the spiritual teacher wants something from you, that is probably the easiest, clearest sign that there's something – that's a yellow flag, if not a red flag.

Scott Edelstein

If they can't say I was wrong, just straight out, or I'm sorry, or I made a mistake, run away.

Scott Edelstein

Don't follow anything just because some particular person said it or you read it in a book. Question it. Test it out against your own experience. And then if it looks and feels and is demonstrated to be wholesome, follow it.

Scott Edelstein

Zen Training Period (Minneapolis Zen Center)

Scott Edelstein (describing his experience)
  1. Wake up around 3 a.m.
  2. Engage in four meditation periods a day.
  3. Attend talks.
  4. (Optional) Write talks.

How to Discern a Healthy Spiritual Teacher

Scott Edelstein
  1. Build your own discernment and get in touch with what you're feeling and what you want.
  2. Take it slow; don't jump into anything just because you feel a strong pull.
  3. Watch the other people around this person (their students, friends) and observe what they are like.
  4. Look at how the person lives (e.g., do they have a harem, 17 Rolls Royces?).
  5. Assess what they are asking of you; do they put your interests first?
  6. Look for a sense of humor about themselves.
  7. Check if they are willing to say 'I was wrong,' 'I'm sorry,' or 'I made a mistake.'
  8. Avoid teachers who ask for a lot of money, wall off their community from the rest of the world, develop their own kind of inner language, want you to sacrifice so much for the group/them that it hurts your health/mental health, or demand strict obedience.
  9. Use the internet to Google anybody you're interested in (teacher, writer, spiritual leader) and trust recurring comments.
  10. Question everything and test it out against your own experience, as Buddha advised, and only follow what is demonstrated to be wholesome.
1974
Year Scott Edelstein started meditating As a student at Oberlin College.
2
Credits received for Zen Meditation course At Oberlin College's Experimental College.
63
Scott Edelstein's age At the time of the interview.
1999
Year 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple' was published Written by Steve Hagen.
2011
Year 'Sex and the Spiritual Teacher' was published Scott Edelstein's first book on the subject.
2017
Year 'The User's Guide to Spiritual Teachers' was published Scott Edelstein's follow-up book.
8-9%
Estimated percentage of population with 'wannabe king' personality According to Bill Eddy's 'wannabe king theory'.
30%
Estimated percentage of population predisposed to follow 'wannabe kings' According to Bill Eddy's 'wannabe king theory', with some research evidence.
1984-1985
Approximate year Jack Kornfield published article on sex and spiritual teachers Published in Yoga Journal.