Scott Rogers, Embracing Your Adversary

Sep 12, 2018 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Scott Rogers, director of the Mindfulness in Law program at the University of Miami School of Law, shares his journey with mindfulness. He discusses how he realized his approach to litigation was contributing to dissatisfaction and now teaches law students and faculty to embrace mindfulness to reduce stress while remaining competitive.

At a Glance
8 Insights
59m 37s Duration
12 Topics
4 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Advice for Aspiring Meditation Teachers

Introducing Meditation to Children from Faith Backgrounds

Scott Rogers' Introduction to Transcendental Meditation

Transition from TM to Mindfulness and Buddhist Psychology

Applying 'Heart-Opening Embrace' in Adversarial Law

Mindfulness in Commercial Litigation and Personal Life

Establishing Mindfulness in Law School Curriculum

Why Lawyer Well-being Matters to Society

Challenges and Misconceptions of Teaching Mindfulness in Law

Scott Rogers' New Book: The Elements of Mindfulness

Mindful Parenting: Responding to Children's Emotions

Scott Rogers' Books and Online Resources

Mindfulness

Mindfulness is about waking up and breaking out of autopilot, constantly reminding oneself to be present. It involves being able to distinguish between what is actually happening and the stories one tells oneself about what is happening.

Heart-Opening Embrace

This concept involves realizing our deep interconnectedness and that we are 'in this together,' even with adversaries. It means taming the inner voice that creates distance and letting go of the perception of others as threats, fostering a sense of connection that is inherent in the system.

Spacious Resonant Environment

In parenting, this refers to a parent's internal state that allows a child to fully express themselves without internal resistance or judgment from the parent. It enables the parent to be present and accepting of the child's emotions, rather than squelching them.

Interbeing

A concept from Thich Nhat Hanh, interbeing highlights the deep connectedness between ourselves and the world around us. It suggests that elements like trees, wind, and the sun are not separate from our bodies, breath, minds, and capacity for warmth and awareness.

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What advice is there for current meditation practitioners who want to become teachers?

It is recommended to have a lot of experience on retreat and significant time on the cushion, as teaching is a position of extraordinary responsibility. Institutions like the Insight Meditation Society and Spirit Rock offer teacher training programs.

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How can one introduce meditation to children from a faith-based background who might be hostile to it?

It's best to depict meditation in secular terms, framing it as a brain training to improve productivity, focus, and emotional regulation, rather than an attack on their belief system. Highlighting how it makes admired figures (military, executives, athletes) better at what they do can also be persuasive.

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How did Scott Rogers begin his meditation practice?

Scott began meditating about 28 years prior, during law school, when his wife Pam signed them up to learn Transcendental Meditation (TM) through the school psychologist, Marty Peters.

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How can mindfulness be applied in a competitive professional context like law?

Mindfulness allows one to be present, aware, and alert, truly hearing what others are saying without adding hostility. It helps differentiate between what's happening and the story one tells oneself, enabling a responsive approach to situations without overdoing or underdoing it, thus competing without being cruel.

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Why should society care about the well-being and happiness of lawyers?

Lawyers are stewards of the rule of law, which brings stability and clarity to society. When lawyers suffer from high rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide, it impacts the entire system they uphold. Caring for their well-being ultimately benefits society as a whole.

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What factors contribute to elevated rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide among legal professionals?

Lawyers are often problem-solvers, competitive, and perfectionistic. While these traits serve clients well, an inability to modulate them can lead to constantly seeking problems, perceiving threats everywhere, and obsessively re-checking work, leading to chronic stress and mental health issues.

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What are the biggest challenges when teaching mindfulness in a law school environment?

The primary challenge is addressing students' concern about maintaining competitiveness while embracing mindfulness. People are relieved to learn that mindfulness and competitiveness are not antithetical but mutually supportive, though it requires understanding the larger picture of what mindfulness truly is.

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How does Scott Rogers' 'Elements of Mindfulness' book use nature for mindfulness practice?

The book uses universal natural elements like trees, wind, clouds, and the sun as cues and metaphors for mindfulness. For example, seeing a tree can prompt adjusting posture, feeling the wind can prompt deep breaths, and observing clouds can prompt awareness of thoughts and feelings.

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What internal factors in a parent can prevent a child from fully expressing their emotions?

A parent's own negative reactions to a child's strong emotional displays, such as anger, sadness, or resistance to what the child is expressing, can squelch the child's expression. If parents don't notice and observe these internal reactions and find a way to be okay with them, they may not respond skillfully.

1. Compete Without Cruelty

In competitive or adversarial contexts, practice mindfulness to discern between actual events and your internal narrative, listen attentively to others, and respond appropriately without overreacting. This approach enables effective competition while maintaining a connection to shared humanity, even with adversaries.

2. Cultivate Mindful Parenting

Create a “spacious resonant environment” for your child by being present and validating their emotions without judgment. Skillfully manage your own internal reactions to their emotional displays, allowing them to express themselves freely, and embrace opportunities to repair relational ruptures.

3. Practice “So Be Mindful” Method

Use natural elements as cues for mindfulness: adjust posture with a tree, take three slow breaths with the wind, acknowledge thoughts and feelings with clouds, and practice loving-kindness with the sun. This method can be integrated as a formal practice or as “punctuated practices” throughout your day to cultivate continuous awareness.

4. Modulate Professional Drive

If you are in a demanding profession, consciously modulate your problem-solving, competitiveness, and perfectionism outside of work. Failing to do so can lead to constant stress, an overestimation of threats, and an inability to relax, contributing to anxiety and depression.

5. Secularize Meditation for Children

When introducing meditation to children from a faith-based background, frame it in secular terms as brain training that enhances productivity, focus, and emotional regulation. Emphasize its benefits for admired professionals and its potential to improve existing spiritual practices like prayer.

6. Embrace Repetitive Mindfulness Practice

Consistently engage with mindfulness teachings and practices, even if they seem repetitive, because the human tendency to operate mindlessly requires frequent reminders to “wake up” from autopilot and remember fundamental truths.

7. Train as a Meditation Teacher

To become an effective meditation teacher, gain extensive personal experience on retreat and consider formal training programs, such as those offered by the Insight Meditation Society or Spirit Rock. This deep personal practice is crucial for guiding others responsibly.

8. Be Fully Present with Others

Make a conscious effort to be entirely present and attentive during interactions with others. This deep engagement, though often challenging, is a powerful way to foster connection and understanding.

There's nothing I'm going to share with you all that you don't already know. It's that we tend to forget. So let's, here we are, we've come together to remember.

Ram Dass (quoted by Scott Rogers)

Mindfulness is being able to tell the difference between what's happening and the story you're telling yourself about what's happening.

Sharon Salzberg (quoted by Scott Rogers)

You can compete without being cruel.

Sharon Salzberg (quoted by Dan Harris)

Treat a person as you will. Just hold them in your heart.

Scott Rogers

The thing that serves lawyers so well can become the thing that, that just answers the question you asked about why.

Scott Rogers

As you lose sight of it in the other, you're losing touch of it within yourself.

Scott Rogers

Wherever you find yourself in this moment, if there's a person sitting across from you, as you are me to really be there for that person.

Scott Rogers

So Be Mindful Method (Doing Practice)

Scott Rogers
  1. When seeing a tree, adjust your posture to be upright and stable.
  2. When feeling or hearing the wind, take three slow, deep breaths.
  3. When seeing a cloud, think to yourself, 'This is a thought,' to prime awareness of mind content.
  4. Smile and think, 'This is a feeling,' to connect with a slight uplift in mood.
  5. Frown and think, 'This is a feeling,' to connect with a slight drop in mood.
  6. When thinking of the sun, bring someone to mind and wish them well ('May you be happy') to spread warmth.
  7. Bring the warmth to yourself ('May I be happy') as a small loving-kindness practice.

So Be Mindful Method (Being Practice)

Scott Rogers
  1. Return to the tree as an awareness of the body practice.
  2. Move to the wind as an awareness of the breath practice.
  3. Move to clouds as an awareness of thoughts and feelings practice.
  4. Move to the sun as a practice of bare attention or choiceless awareness.

In-Vivo Tree Awareness Practice for Law Students

Scott Rogers
  1. When you see a tree outside, just once a day at most, stop.
  2. Be aware of the body in that moment.
28 years ago
Years Scott Rogers started meditating (from episode recording date) Around 1990, when he was in law school.
10 years or longer
Time it took for 'heart-opening embrace' to begin to kick in for Scott Rogers Specifically towards adversaries in his legal practice.
15 students
Students who signed up for Scott's first voluntary mindfulness class Out of which 8 students finished the class.
120 students
Students who signed up for mindfulness classes after Scott's orientation talk Led to three classes the following semester/year.
2010
Year the Mindfulness in Law program became official at University of Miami Law School Established by Dean Trish White.
3 years old
Age of Dan Harris's son Mentioned during a discussion about mindful parenting.