Should You Be Taking Psychedelics? The Benefits, the Risks, and the Science. | Jay Michaelson

Feb 24, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dan Harris talks with Jay Michaelson, a meditation teacher, author, and scholar of psychedelics, about the growing revolution in the psychedelic space. They discuss the science, different compounds, the intersection with meditation, and personal experiences, including Dan's reluctance due to panic disorder.

At a Glance
21 Insights
1h 20m Duration
19 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Psychedelics and Personal Reluctance

Jay Michaelson's Shift to Psychedelics from Meditation

Sociopolitical and Scientific Drivers of Psychedelic Acceptance

Unplanned Mystical Experiences and Healing Potential

Addressing Fear of 'Bad Trips' and Feeling Trapped

The Importance of 'Set and Setting' in Psychedelic Journeys

Political Diversity and Funding in the Psychedelic Space

Scientific Research on Psychedelic Benefits and Mechanisms

Comparing Psychedelics and Meditation for Deep Healing

Microdosing and MDMA as 'Softer' Psychedelic Options

Profound Spiritual Experiences Among Clergy with Psychedelics

Overview of Various Psychedelic Compounds and Their Effects

Experiences of Ego Death and Expansive Consciousness

MDMA as an Empathogen and Ketamine's Legal Accessibility

Practical Advice for Considering Psychedelic Use

Navigating Legality and Finding Trusted Guides

Overlap and Synergy Between Meditation and Psychedelics

The Critical Role of 'Integration' After Psychedelic Experiences

Psychedelics are Not a Mandatory Path for Seekers

CERT Experience

CERT stands for Spiritual, Existential, Religious, or Theological Experience. These are profound, sometimes life-changing peak experiences that can occur during psychedelic therapy, even for atheists, and are correlated with better mental health outcomes.

Set and Setting

These are the two primary factors determining a psychedelic experience. 'Set' refers to one's mindset, including intentions, fears, and expectations, while 'setting' refers to the physical environment and the presence of guides or companions.

Entheogen

A term for certain psychedelics that are believed to bring 'the God within' or facilitate an experience of the divine. It highlights the religious or spiritual aspect of some psychedelic use, suggesting an inner encounter with the sacred.

Empathogen

A term used to describe compounds like MDMA that foster empathy and emotional resonance. These substances can make intimate communication easier and often lead to feelings of euphoria and connection.

Ego Death

A profound psychedelic experience where the sense of a separate self or 'I' completely dissolves. This can lead to a feeling of merging with a larger consciousness or the ground of experience itself, often described as an ice cube melting into a bath.

Integration

The crucial process of processing, reviewing, and reflecting on a psychedelic experience after it has occurred. It is considered as important as the experience itself for long-term healing and insight, as the brain needs time to sort out and process the information.

?
Why is there a growing interest in psychedelics now?

The current mental health crisis, characterized by a lack of meaning and pervasive loneliness, combined with a growing body of scientific evidence supporting the benefits of psychedelics for conditions like PTSD and depression, is fueling their resurgence.

?
What is the primary focus of current psychedelic research?

Research is largely focused on treating acute mental health conditions such as PTSD, intractable anxiety, and medication-resistant depression, showing promising results for many individuals.

?
Can psychedelics help with profound spiritual experiences?

Yes, studies with clergy have shown that many participants consider their psychedelic experiences among the most powerful spiritual events of their lives, leading to profound insights and a sense of expanded consciousness.

?
What is the difference between MDMA and other psychedelics like LSD?

MDMA is often described as an 'empathogen' that fosters love and empathy, making intimate communication easier and often leading to euphoria, while LSD is said to 'show you the truth' and can lead to more intense, sometimes challenging, self-exploratory experiences.

?
How does meditation relate to using psychedelics?

A background in meditation, particularly in practices of letting go and being with difficult experiences, can be an incredibly valuable ally for navigating psychedelic journeys, especially higher-dose experiences, by helping individuals avoid fighting the experience.

?
Is it necessary to try psychedelics to achieve personal growth or spiritual insight?

No, while psychedelics can offer unique insights and experiences, they are not for everyone, and individuals can achieve profound personal growth and spiritual understanding through other practices like meditation without using these compounds.

?
What determines the nature of a psychedelic experience?

The experience is largely determined by 'set' (your mindset, intentions, and expectations) and 'setting' (the physical environment and the support system, such as a guide or companions).

?
What is the role of 'integration' after a psychedelic experience?

Integration, the process of processing, reviewing, and reflecting on the experience, is as important as the experience itself for long-term healing and insight, as the brain needs time to sort out and process the information.

?
Is it safe to try psychedelics if I have an anxiety or panic disorder?

While psychedelics can be dangerous if not approached carefully, a responsible facilitator will screen participants and tailor the setting and dosage. For some, confronting panic in a controlled, supportive environment could be a growth experience, but it's crucial to have proper guidance and screening.

?
What are some commonly discussed psychedelic compounds?

Common compounds include plant-based medicines like ayahuasca (a brew from the Amazon), psychoactive mushrooms (psilocybin), and cactuses (mescaline), as well as synthesized substances like LSD, MDMA, 5-MeO-DMT, and ketamine.

?
What are the risks of using psychedelics, especially given their legal status?

Psychedelics carry a potential for harm, especially without proper guidance and screening, and can lead to difficult or unwanted experiences. Their illegality in many places also means a lack of regulation and transparency, making it harder to find trusted guides and verify sources.

1. Prioritize Safety & Guidance

Recognize that psychedelics carry a significantly higher potential for harm than meditation, making proper guidance and screening essential before engaging with them. Do not enter without proper guidance or screening.

2. Ensure Proper Screening & Setting

A responsible guide or practitioner will screen participants for conditions like anxiety or panic disorder and choose an appropriate physical setting and medicine dosage to mitigate risks. Ensure the physical setting is safe and supportive, like a cozy living room, not an enclosed space.

3. Cultivate a Prepared Mindset

Before a psychedelic experience, cultivate an open mindset rather than approaching it with fear or resistance, as your mental state significantly influences the experience. A mindset of desperation to heal can also be a powerful asset.

4. Develop a Meditation Practice

Cultivate a meditation or yoga practice, as the ability to let go and be with difficult experiences without freaking out is incredibly valuable during higher-dose psychedelic journeys. This practice provides essential tools for navigating intense states.

5. Prioritize Post-Experience Integration

Understand that the integration period after a psychedelic experience is as crucial as the experience itself for lasting benefit. Dedicate time to process, review, and reflect on the experience, ideally with support, rather than immediately returning to daily routines.

6. Clarify Your Intention

Before considering psychedelics, clearly define your intention, whether it’s for exploration, spiritual growth, or addressing a specific mental health condition. This clarity will help guide your choices regarding medicine and approach.

7. Do Not Go It Alone

Involve a trusted person, such as a psychiatrist, therapist, or another reliable individual, in your psychedelic process. Do not attempt to navigate these experiences by yourself.

8. Thoroughly Research & Consult

Conduct extensive reading and research on psychedelics, including books and experiences, and consult mental health professionals and meditation teachers you trust for advice and potential referrals. Be discerning about who you listen to.

9. Choose a Trustworthy Guide

Select a guide or therapist whose worldview aligns with yours and whom you deeply trust, especially when in a vulnerable state. Your sense of trust in the guide is paramount, regardless of their specific beliefs.

10. Start Small with Dosing

If you have reservations or are new to psychedelics, consider starting with microdosing or low doses under therapeutic guidance to gradually build confidence and acclimate to the experience.

11. Discuss Boundaries for Touch

Before an experience, proactively discuss and establish clear boundaries with your facilitator or guide regarding physical touch, as you may not be able to consent in the moment.

12. Practice Non-Resistance

During a psychedelic experience, especially a challenging one, practice non-resistance by letting go and floating downstream, as fighting the experience can contribute to a ‘bad trip’.

13. Listen to Your Intuition

Pay attention to your gut feelings about different psychedelic experiences; if a description excites you, explore it, but if it evokes strong reluctance or fear, listen to that intuition and proceed with caution or reconsider.

14. Exercise Caution in Early Field

Be aware that the psychedelic field is still in its early stages of development, akin to a ‘Wild West’ phase, meaning there’s a mix of quality and motives among practitioners, so exercise buyer beware.

15. Verify Self-Sourced Substances

If you choose to obtain substances independently, ensure you are very certain of the source and test them if possible, as current regulations make transparency difficult.

16. Consider MDMA for Softer Experiences

For those seeking a less intense or ‘softer’ psychedelic experience, MDMA is often described as showing ’love’ and having lower odds of a difficult experience compared to compounds like LSD or psilocybin.

17. Be Aware of Ketamine Risks

While legally accessible in many places, be mindful that ketamine carries an addictive capacity and overdose risk, unlike MDMA, and can be taken daily.

18. Don’t Feel Pressured to Use

Understand that you do not have to use psychedelics to be a committed, growth-oriented, or spiritual person, and you can achieve personal improvement or spiritual goals through other means.

19. Avoid Self-Criticism

Do not use the topic of psychedelics as another reason to engage in self-criticism, whether you choose to explore them or not.

20. Access App Guided Meditations

Download the ‘10% with Dan Harris’ app for a library of guided meditations to help with stress, anxiety, sleep, focus, and self-compassion, along with access to live community sessions and ad-free podcast episodes. A 14-day trial is available.

21. Utilize Subscriber Resources

If you are a paid subscriber at danharris.com, access the cheat sheet with key takeaways and a special guided meditation from Jay Michelson to help integrate the episode’s learnings.

LSD maybe shows you the truth, but MDMA shows you the love.

Jay Michelson

The greater your S-E-R-T experience, the more effective the psychedelic therapy tends to be for the mental health outcome.

Jay Michelson

You can be certain, but also be wrong.

Jay Michelson

It's like an ice cube in a hot bath. Like, the ice cube definitely disappears. It melts. But it melts into the ground of experience itself.

Jay Michelson

A bad trip is just fighting the trip that you're on. There's no such thing as a bad trip in itself. It's your resistance.

Jay Michelson

You're not there, but consciousness of some kind is there.

Jay Michelson
1991
Jay Michaelson's first psychedelic experience At Columbia University
2003 or 2004
Jay Michaelson met Rick Doblin At Burning Man
2007
Jay Michaelson's first ayahuasca experience In Peru
2002
Jay Michaelson's first meditation retreat Approximate year
August 2024
FDA turned down first psychedelic medication application MDMA plus therapy for PTSD
4 to 12 hours
Duration of ayahuasca experience Typically, can vary
around 4 hours
Duration of LSD and mushroom experiences Typical duration
20 minutes
Duration of 5-MeO-DMT experience Very short, like a rocket ship
around half
Clergy reporting psychedelics as most powerful spiritual experience From a Johns Hopkins study of clergy