The Case for Devotion, Kittisaro and Thanissara

Nov 20, 2019 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Former Buddhist monk Kittisaro and nun Thanissara discuss their journey from monastic life to marriage, how deep meditation informs their relationship, and their advocacy for devotional practice and addressing the climate crisis. They share insights on navigating conflict and finding inner resilience.

At a Glance
39 Insights
1h 48m Duration
11 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Thanissara's Introduction to Meditation and Buddhism

Kittisaro's Path to Meditation and Meeting Ajahn Chah

The First Encounter with Ajahn Chah and the Dog Analogy

Thanissara and Kittisaro's Meeting and Forbidden Romance

Challenges of Monastic Patriarchy and Outgrowing the Form

Leaving the Order and Navigating a New Life Together

Applying Meditation Wisdom to Romantic Relationship Conflicts

The Case for Devotional Practice in Buddhism

Reconciling Sacredness with a Secular/Scientific Mindset

Addressing the Climate Crisis in Dharma Teaching and Practice

Shifting Refuge from External Certainty to Inner Abiding

Nibbida

A Buddhist concept referring to a sense of emptiness or weariness about everything elevated in society, such as career, marriage, or making money, leading one to question conventional trajectories.

Dukkha

The Buddhist term for suffering, which Ajahn Chah described as a noble truth. The idea is that if suffering can be openly embraced, it can deepen one's capacity to engage with life's difficulties and lead to illumination.

Primary Relationship (Meditation)

Cultivating a direct relationship with the essential elements of experience, such as sensation and feeling, in one's own space. This skill in relating to inner experience can then be applied to interactions with others.

Devotion (Buddhist Context)

Dedication to the Dharma (the way things are) and shifting one's commitment from societal value structures and opinions to recognizing an inner awareness or reflectiveness. It's not about blind obedience but a profound inner turning.

Bowing Practice (Purpose)

A symbolic act of returning to the ground, honoring one's deepest nature and the timeless awareness that holds all experiences. It helps one to get out of their head, soften volition, and recognize the unmoving ground of being.

Sacredness/Awe

A feeling of reverence or awe evoked by profound experiences, such as observing nature or the vastness of the universe. It represents a deep connection to the conscious beingness of all things, moving beyond an extractive worldview.

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How did Thanissara first get interested in meditation and Buddhism?

Thanissara was about 18 when she first attended a meditation retreat with her boyfriend in the UK, practicing a rigorous Vipassana method. She initially didn't know it was Buddhism but felt a profound peace and knew it was important, later realizing it was the Dharma that supported her practice.

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What motivated Thanissara to become a Buddhist nun?

Thanissara was questioning societal expectations and felt an emptiness (nibbida) about conventional life paths. She was drawn to a mystical, meditative approach and was profoundly impacted by meeting Ajahn Chah, which inspired her to ordain as a Buddhist nun for 12 years.

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How did Kittisaro transition from an ambitious academic path to becoming a monk?

While a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, Kittisaro, despite his achievements, felt a deep weariness from constant striving. He found solace in silent contemplation and realized he needed an inner teacher, which led him to a meditation retreat and eventually to meet Ajahn Chah in Thailand.

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How did Ajahn Chah teach Kittisaro about meditation during their first meeting?

When Kittisaro described his complex body-sweeping meditation technique, Ajahn Chah got on all fours and imitated a dog sniffing, then advised Kittisaro to focus on understanding one simple thing well, like the breath, rather than trying to understand everything superficially.

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How did Thanissara and Kittisaro's monastic lives prepare them for a romantic relationship?

Their extensive meditation practice cultivated a 'primary relationship' with inner experience, teaching them how to relate to sensations, feelings, and the essential elements of being. This training in attention and inquiry helped them navigate the challenges of interaction, give each other space, and recover from conflicts by seeing patterns and letting go.

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How do they apply meditation wisdom to resolve conflicts in their relationship?

They learned to recognize their deeply ingrained, often opposite, conditioned patterns from their family backgrounds that emerge during conflict. By pausing, identifying these patterns, and understanding each other's needs (e.g., one needing space, the other needing to probe), they can move towards resolution and solidarity, even in moments of deep emotional activation.

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What is the true meaning of devotional practice in their Buddhist teaching?

Devotional practice is about being 'dedicated to' the Dharma and the way things truly are, shifting from blind faith in societal views to recognizing one's inner awareness. External acts like bowing are symbolic ways to humble oneself, let go of opinions, and connect with the timeless ground of being within, rather than worshipping an external deity.

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How do they address the climate crisis in their Dharma teachings and retreats?

They integrate the reality of the climate emergency into their teachings by helping people resource themselves and build internal resilience to meet challenging circumstances. While not 'flooding' people with disaster news, they name what's happening and encourage collective conversations, wisdom, and compassion to prepare for an unprecedented multifaceted crisis.

1. Open to Suffering’s Message

View suffering not just as a negative experience, but as a potential messenger that can deepen your capacity to be with life’s difficulties. Approaching suffering with awareness can lead to illumination and understanding.

2. Breathe with Struggles to Understand

When facing struggles, allow your awareness to touch and breathe with the difficulty, honoring these moments. This can illuminate how you perpetuate distress and help soften grasping and rejecting, connecting you with a deeper core.

3. Understand Family Conflict Patterns

Recognize that your approach to conflict is shaped by family conditioning, and your partner’s is too. Understanding these different patterns in yourself and your partner can help you navigate disputes more effectively.

4. Pause and Name Conflict Patterns

In moments of conflict, learn to identify when you’re caught in a conditioned pattern, then consciously pause to create space for understanding and resolution. This helps break reactive cycles and allows for clearer communication.

5. Communicate Needs During Conflict

Clearly articulate what is happening for you and what you need in moments of conflict (e.g., ‘I need some space right now’). This helps your partner understand your internal experience and avoids misinterpretations.

6. Show Solidarity in Distress

In moments of deep distress or conflict, sometimes an explanation isn’t needed; a simple gesture of solidarity, like holding a hand, can be a powerful way to offer support. This helps someone emerge from a difficult emotional state by feeling connected.

7. Focus on One Thing Well

Instead of trying to understand everything superficially, choose one fundamental practice (like being with your breathing) and understand it thoroughly. This deep understanding can lead to insight into everything, as all phenomena are interconnected.

8. Become a Doctor of the Heart

Focus on cultivating inner wisdom and understanding the nature of the heart or spirit. This path, as taught by Ajahn Chah, can lead to discovering that which is timeless and transcends birth and death.

9. Practice Symbolic Bowing to Deepest Nature

Use bowing as a symbolic act to momentarily set aside your opinions and return to the fundamental ground of being. This practice honors your own deepest nature and the timeless awareness within, rather than just an external image.

10. Soften Volition for Timeless Ground

Beyond constant striving and willpower, learn to soften your volition and effort. This allows you to notice the unmoving, timeless ground of being within which all experiences of pleasure and pain arise.

11. Shift Refuge from External Reliance

Use contemplative and meditation practices to move your sense of safety and security away from an over-reliance on external circumstances. External things are inherently uncertain, so cultivating inner stability provides a more reliable refuge.

12. Find Peace in Accepting Reality

Cultivate the ability to recognize and abide peacefully with things exactly as they are, whether pleasant, neutral, or painful. This practice helps you find stability rather than seeking certainty in an uncertain world.

13. Cultivate Primary Relationship via Meditation

Use meditation to develop skill in relating to the essential elements of experience – sensations, feelings, and the fundamental aspects of being. This enhances your ability to connect with others and the world around you.

14. Allow Space for Withdrawal

Grant yourself permission to withdraw attention from external responsibilities for periods to compose, calm, and center yourself. This refreshment and grounding allows you to skillfully re-engage with the external world.

15. Shift Devotion from Self-Righteousness

Recognize that you are already devoted to things like your views and opinions, often believing you are right. Consciously shift this devotion away from self-righteousness and blind obedience to your biases towards a more open truth.

16. Devote to Truth and Inner Awareness

Dedicate yourself to understanding ’the way things are’ (Dharma) through practices of training attention and inquiry. This helps you recognize your core source of reflectiveness, inner awareness, and inner listening.

17. Return to Simple Presence

When overwhelmed by complexity, return to the simplicity of being present with your immediate experience, such as sitting or standing. This practice helps you find grounding and clarity in the moment.

18. Question Objective Worldview Limits

Challenge the purely objective, extractive scientific worldview by considering the subjectivity of consciousness and the interconnectedness of all things. This expands understanding beyond seeing reality as mere objects to be exploited.

19. Infuse Life with Awe

Cultivate a worldview that recognizes the conscious beingness and subjectivity in all things, infusing life with a sense of awe, mystery, and deep respect. This perspective acknowledges that not everything is an object, but part of a living web.

20. Embrace Humility for Planetary Crisis

Acknowledge humanity’s role in the planetary crisis with humility, recognizing that current approaches are out of harmony and require a fundamental shift. This mindset is crucial for addressing global challenges effectively.

21. Cultivate Reverence for Nature

Develop a deep sense of reverence for nature, your own body, and all relationships, integrating this sacredness into your daily actions and interactions. This fosters a respectful and sustainable way of living.

22. Drop Back to Awareness

Practice dropping back from thoughts, stories, and emotions to perceive them playing out against the mysterious backdrop of consciousness or awareness. This creates distance from mental content and reveals a deeper ground of being.

23. Experience Interconnectedness with Vastness

Cultivate experiences that allow you to feel part of a vast, mysterious totality, recognizing the interflowing nature of all existence. This can be achieved by observing natural processes, like the breath exchange with trees.

24. Utilize Religious Structures as Tools

Approach religious structures, ceremonies, or rituals as tools for spiritual exploration and transformation, rather than as ultimate truths to be blindly believed. This allows for personal engagement without dogmatism.

25. Use Physical Practices to Ground

Engage in physical practices like bowing to shift your focus away from overthinking and into a more grounded, present state. This helps to ‘get out of your head’ and connect with your body and the present moment.

26. Meet Crises Realistically with Dharma

Apply Dharma teachings to cultivate the capacity to realistically face and engage with the multifaceted crises of the world. This means not spiritually bypassing challenges, but meeting them with clarity and resilience.

27. Build Internal Resilience for Challenges

Focus on resourcing yourself and building internal capacity and reliance to meet challenging circumstances, such as climate catastrophe, with greater strength and stability. This prepares you to navigate unprecedented difficulties.

28. Do Not Shy from Reality

While building resilience, do not avoid or pretend that difficult realities, like the climate crisis, are not happening. Acknowledge them directly to foster a truthful and engaged response.

29. Consciously Name Emergencies to Act

Clearly and consciously identify situations as emergencies (e.g., climate crisis) to recognize that ‘business as usual’ is no longer viable. This realization prompts the need for radical changes and urgent action.

30. Engage in Collective Conversations

Foster and participate in collective conversations within communities to share and discuss unprecedented, multifaceted crises. Individual approaches are insufficient; collective dialogue is essential for understanding and response.

31. Prepare Collectively for Future

Consciously prepare for future challenges by collaboratively developing practical skills and strengths within communities. This involves determining collective needs and strategies to enhance group resilience.

32. Rejoice in Simplicity and Presence

Learn to touch the world lightly, finding joy and appreciation in simple things like your breath, presence, sharing, and others’ good fortune. This fosters a non-exploitative way of living that values intrinsic worth over consumption.

33. Relinquish Appropriating Consciousness

Investigate and loosen your attachment to a consciousness that defines security solely by what you own, have, or control. Realize instead your interconnectedness with a vast, mysterious totality, fostering a sense of belonging beyond possession.

34. Practice Soft Surrendering

Cultivate a soft surrendering that allows you to hold the world more lightly. This fosters appreciation for your deep kinship with other beings and Mother Earth, promoting harmony and interconnectedness.

35. Compose Self to Bless Earth

By composing yourself and consciously changing your attitude, you can positively impact and ‘bless’ Mother Earth and your environment. Your internal state has a ripple effect on the world around you.

36. Question Societal Trajectories

Deeply question the path society expects you to be on (e.g., career, marriage, settling down) to explore alternative ways of being and understanding. This critical inquiry can lead to a more authentic life path.

37. Seek Wise Teachers

When exploring inner landscapes or spiritual paths, recognize the value of finding teachers who can share what they know, bless, encourage, and guide you. A good teacher provides invaluable support and direction.

38. Practice Silent Pausing

Find quiet places to sit silently and pause, allowing yourself to connect with the resonance of presence. This practice helps you discover what you might be overlooking in your life and fosters inner calm.

39. Learn to Shift Consciousness

If seeking alternative ways of being and understanding, consider meditation as a crucial next step to learn how to shift and open your consciousness. This foundational practice enables deeper self-exploration.

If you understand one thing well, you can understand everything. If you try to understand everything, you might end up not understanding anything thoroughly. Why don't you learn how to be with your breathing?

Ajahn Chah

If you become a doctor of the heart, doctor of the spirit, you will learn the cure for birth and death. You will discover that which never dies.

Ajahn Chah

If it was so bad, the Buddha wouldn't call it a noble truth.

Ajahn Chah

Devotion means dedicated to, and devoted to, and we're devoted to all sorts of things already. People say, I don't have any faith. You know, we have a lot of faith. We have faith in our views, faith in our righteous opinions. We bow down and worship my idea that I'm right and you're wrong.

Kittisaro

Can we bow in the heart? Can we be humble now as humans and realize we've screwed everything up?

Thanissara

If you look for certainty in that which is uncertain, you're bound to suffer.

Ajahn Chah

Bowing Practice (Mahayana Tradition)

Thanissara
  1. Stand upright.
  2. Bring hands together, sometimes pointing them to the head (representing mind), then mouth (speech), then heart (feeling nature).
  3. Bring hands and head to the ground, symbolizing a return to the ground of being.
  4. Rise back up, honoring the experiences of life while also acknowledging the silent awareness holding it all.

Conflict Resolution in Relationships

Thanissara
  1. Recognize and name the patterns of conditioning that are being activated in the moment of conflict (e.g., withdrawing vs. probing).
  2. Take a pause to create space and prevent exacerbating the situation.
  3. Understand each other's needs and where each person is coming from (e.g., needing space, feeling threatened).
  4. Communicate what is happening for oneself, even if it's just to name the feeling or need (e.g., 'I need some space now').
  5. Show solidarity and offer comfort, such as holding hands, to acknowledge the shared suffering without needing immediate explanation or resolution.
18
Thanissara's age when she first did a meditation retreat Approximate age
24
Kittisaro's age when he felt exhausted at Oxford Felt '104' due to weariness
October 6, 1976
Date Kittisaro arrived in Thailand and experienced a revolution Worst day in modern Thai history
12 years
Number of years Thanissara was a Buddhist nun Inspired by Ajahn Chah
15 years
Number of years Kittisaro was a Buddhist monk After meeting Ajahn Chah
Twice
Number of times Ajahn Chah visited England before 1979 In 1977 and 1979
1978-1979
Approximate year Chithurst Monastery was established First monastic residence of Ajahn Chah's forest schools in the West
10 years
Number of years Ajahn Chah was sick before Kittisaro disrobed Unable to speak and paralyzed
Over 25 years
Number of years since Thanissara and Kittisaro left the monastery From the time of the podcast recording
40
Kittisaro's age when he got married Approximate age
36
Thanissara's age when she got married Approximate age
1994
Year Thanissara and Kittisaro went to South Africa Just after the liberation
7 years
Number of years they were guiding teachers at a center in South Africa Before starting their own nonprofit
About 10 years
Number of years they have been working in America On and off
Nearly over a million people
Number of people affected by power outages in California Due to climate catastrophe