The Mind-Bending Science of Advanced Meditation | Matthew Sacchet
Dan Harris talks with Dr. Matthew D. Sacchet, Director of the Meditation Research Program at Harvard Medical School, about the "third wave" of meditation research focusing on advanced states, their impact on the brain, and the potential for wider access. They also discuss the psychological risks involved.
Deep Dive Analysis
14 Topic Outline
Introduction to Advanced Meditation and Scientific Exploration
The Three Waves of Meditation Research
Defining Advanced Meditation and its Goals
Distinguishing Advanced Meditation from Basic Mindfulness
The Role of Different Contemplative Traditions in Research
The Concept of Meditative Development and Cross-Tradition Maps
Scientific Approach to Studying Advanced Meditation
Six Domains of Advanced Meditation Research
Relevance of Advanced Meditation Research for Everyday Practitioners
The Challenge of Striving in Meditation Practice
Safety and Psychological Difficulties in Advanced Meditation
Technology's Potential Role in Accelerating Advanced Meditation
The Jhanas: Description and Scientific Findings
Future Vision for Advanced Meditation Research and Societal Impact
10 Key Concepts
First Wave Meditation Research
This initial phase (mid-90s to 2005) focused on establishing whether meditation was helpful, particularly in reducing stress, anxiety, and other mental and physical health symptoms.
Second Wave Meditation Research
Following the first wave, this phase concentrated on understanding the underlying mechanisms of meditation's health-related effects, often through cognitive psychology and neuroscience studies exploring brain and mind function.
Third Wave Meditation Research
This current epoch of meditation research is characterized by a focus on 'advanced meditation,' moving beyond initial stress reduction to explore the states, stages, skills, and transformations that occur with sustained practice and mastery.
Advanced Meditation
This refers to the deep end of practice, exploring experiences like ecstatic bliss states, profound insights into the mind's workings, and the development of compassionate and altruistic orientations, ultimately leading to enduring personal transformation or enlightenment.
Meditative Development
This concept describes a developmental trajectory in meditation, similar to normative human development, which includes distinct stages characterized by evolving cognitive, affective, and psychological qualities that unfold with time and mastery.
Dukanyanas (Knowledges of Suffering)
In Theravadan Buddhist insight practice, these are stages characterized by insights into the nature of psychological phenomena, which can sometimes involve challenging or difficult experiences for practitioners.
Dark Night of the Soul
A concept found in Christian mystical traditions, describing a challenging phase of self or ego death during the spiritual journey, which some researchers hypothesize may be fundamentally similar to the Dukanyanas in Buddhism.
Advanced Concentrative Absorption Meditation (ACAM)
A class of advanced meditative practices defined by 'absorption,' where a practitioner experiences a profound unification with a psychological object, observed across diverse traditions like Jewish Kabbalah, Sufi mysticism, and various forms of Buddhism.
Advanced Investigative Insight Meditation
This is another class of advanced meditation characterized by the close observation and investigation of the nature of phenomena within one's experience.
Jhanas
These are stable, concentrative absorption states in meditation where negative mental qualities are diminished or absent, and positive qualities such as bliss, peace, and formless aspects are cultivated and refined, often described as eight distinct stages.
8 Questions Answered
The third wave focuses on advanced meditation, exploring the states, stages, skills, and transformations that occur with time and mastery, moving beyond basic stress reduction applications.
Advanced meditation refers to deep states of practice that can include ecstatic bliss, profound insights into the mind, compassionate orientations, and enduring personal transformation, such as what some traditions call enlightenment.
Research integrates a first-person perspective (phenomenology of experience), a second-person perspective (context and explanations from wisdom traditions), and a third-person empirical approach (data-driven measurement).
It explores fundamental human capacities, and some advanced states might be accessible in shorter intensive retreats (e.g., 7-10 days), challenging the assumption that only lifelong monastic practice is required.
Deep meditation can lead to psychological difficulties, sometimes called 'Dukanyanas' or 'Dark Night of the Soul,' necessitating understanding risk factors, safety nets, and education for practitioners and teachers.
While possible through neuromodulation or combined psychedelic-meditation practices, it's an open question requiring rigorous scientific backing; the primary focus remains on understanding and democratizing access through existing low-tech methods like improved instructions.
The Jhanas are stable, concentrative absorption states where negative mental qualities are reduced or absent, and positive qualities like bliss and peace are developed, progressing through eight distinct stages from bodily energy to subtle states beyond perception.
Studies using 7 Tesla fMRI suggest that as one deepens through the Jhanas, brain activity shifts from more anterior regions (like the prefrontal cortex) to more posterior regions, with reduced activity in areas related to internal dialogue and altered brainstem activity.
10 Actionable Insights
1. Practice Daily Mindfulness
Engage in meditation for a little bit daily-ish (e.g., 10-60 minutes) to experience profound benefits like reduced emotional reactivity, increased focus, and greater warmth, even with a busy life.
2. Don’t Obsess Over Progress
Avoid fixating on or striving for specific meditation outcomes or stages, as this ‘practice assessment tapes’ mindset can hinder progress and lead to suffering; instead, focus on simply doing the practice.
3. Consider Intensive Retreats
Explore shorter, intensive meditation retreats (e.g., 7-10 days) as a potential path to access advanced practices and experiences, challenging the assumption that only long monastic retreats are effective.
4. Engage Concentrative Absorption
Practice advanced concentrative absorption meditation (ACAM) by focusing intensely on a single psychological object, such as the breath at the nostrils, to achieve states of deep absorption and potentially access Jhana states.
5. Cultivate Investigative Insight
Engage in advanced investigative insight meditation (AIIM) by closely observing the nature of phenomena in one’s experience to gain deep insights into the mind.
6. Anticipate Deep Practice Challenges
Recognize that deep contemplative practice, regardless of tradition, may involve challenging psychological stages like the ‘Dukanyanas’ or ‘Dark Night of the Soul,’ which are considered part of meditative development.
7. Prioritize Safety in Deep Practice
Approach advanced meditation, especially intensive retreats, with informed consent, understanding the potential for psychological difficulties and seeking guidance on how to work with or avoid them. Do not abandon meditation due to potential difficulties, but rather develop nuanced approaches to safety and support.
8. Motivate with Potential Outcomes
Use the understanding of potential profound outcomes from meditation, such as ecstatic bliss states or deep insights, as a motivator for practice, balancing this awareness with the need to avoid counterproductive striving.
9. Explore Low-Tech Practice
Investigate existing or improved low-tech meditation instructions and practices, as they offer significant potential for deepening understanding and access to advanced states without relying on technology.
10. Open to Future Tech & Practice
Be open to future technological advancements (e.g., neuromodulation, neurofeedback, combined psychedelic-meditation practices) as potential tools to accelerate or deepen meditation practice, provided they are backed by rigorous science.
5 Key Quotes
We're interested in Buddhist advanced meditation and from different lineages and different types of stages and states. But this isn't about Buddhism. It's not about any particular tradition. This is about incredible human capacities that I believe are fundamental to everyone.
Matthew Sacchet
Your progress is none of your business.
Matthew Rensilver (quoted by Dan Harris)
I think there's this risk that we might think, wow, meditation can be dangerous and no one should do it, therefore. Right. There's sort of this knee-jerk reaction of like, oh, if this is dangerous, like we should never do this. Right. And I think that's really not the right way to think about this.
Matthew Sacchet
Perhaps psychedelics provide a certain window into some of these advanced meditative states and perhaps meditation can be more of a door, maybe a way to be more reliable in experiencing these over time, maintaining these kinds of experiences.
Matthew Sacchet
The things that are experienced in these states are super deep and rich and powerful.
Matthew Sacchet