The Profound Upside of Self-Diminishment | George Saunders

Mar 22, 2021 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Guest George Saunders, author of "Lincoln in the Bardo," discusses how writing resembles meditation, the profound upside of self-diminishment, and his "unified theory of brain." He shares insights on cultivating kindness, managing inner voices, and the trainable nature of the mind.

At a Glance
34 Insights
1h 8m Duration
11 Topics
5 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to George Saunders and Lincoln in the Bardo

Exploring the Unified Theory of Brain

Writing as a Source of Happiness and its Link to Meditation

George Saunders' Personal Meditation Practice and its Impact

Navigating Ego and Ambition in Creative and Spiritual Life

The Viral Commencement Speech on Kindness

Distinguishing Kindness from Niceness

The Concept of Self-Diminishment and its Benefits

Insights from 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain'

Understanding Lincoln in the Bardo and the Afterlife

Reflections on a Divided America

Unified Theory of Brain

This concept aims to understand what the brain does during key activities like dying, creating art, and meditating. The idea is that a comprehensive view of brain activity in these states could lead to a better understanding of how to live a better life.

Writing as Meditation

For George Saunders, writing resembles meditation by lessening rumination and quieting the 'monkey mind' through task focus. It involves a high attention mode where decisions are made by gut instinct rather than analytical thought, fostering a gentle, non-judgmental approach to internal voices.

Self-Diminishment

This refers to turning down the volume on self-centered thinking and the constant internal narration that places oneself at the center of the universe. It's not self-deprecation but rather understanding the constructed, temporary nature of the self, allowing for greater love and connection to emerge.

Kindness vs. Niceness

Niceness is described as a surface-level, bland agreeability, whereas kindness is an alert, aware state ready to respond with what is truly needed to benefit others. Kindness requires deep awareness and can sometimes involve pushback or even anger if that is the most helpful response, rather than just being agreeable.

Bardo

A Tibetan word meaning 'transitional space,' often referring to the period between death and reincarnation as described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. In Saunders' novel, it's a general term for the transition between death and whatever comes next, where souls may get stuck due to clinging to life or unresolved pain.

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What is George Saunders' 'unified theory of brain'?

It's an intention to understand what the brain is doing during critical life activities like dying, creating art, and meditating, with the hope that this comprehensive understanding can inform how to live a better life.

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How does writing resemble meditation for George Saunders?

Writing, for Saunders, lessens rumination and quiets the 'monkey mind' by focusing attention on the text and reacting intuitively rather than analytically, similar to the focused, non-conceptual state experienced in meditation.

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What is the core lesson George Saunders has learned from meditation practice?

The biggest lesson is that the mind is not fixed; there is variability in its state, and it can be changed through practice. This awareness allows one to recognize mental tendencies (like defensiveness) as not being one's true self, offering the possibility of making different choices.

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What is the difference between kindness and niceness?

Niceness is a superficial agreeability, while kindness is a deeper, more aware state focused on genuinely benefiting others, which may sometimes require difficult or even confrontational actions rather than just being pleasant.

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What is the 'Bardo' in George Saunders' novel?

The Bardo is a Tibetan term for a transitional space, specifically referring to the state between death and reincarnation. In the novel, it's a metaphorical realm where ghosts are stuck, unable to move on because they cling to life or unresolved pain.

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What are George Saunders' thoughts on what happens after death?

He speculates that one's habits of mind cultivated in life might be 'supersized' after death, suggesting that functional, intelligent, and loving habits would lead to a better experience. He leans towards the rational position of looking to experienced practitioners who speak of rebirth, acknowledging his own 'anti-rebirth mind' might stem from spiritual laziness.

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How does George Saunders approach understanding political division in America?

He tries to fight the urge to theorize and instead focuses on listening to people from different perspectives, gathering data, and remaining in an 'artist mode' that is open to disturbing information rather than closing things off or trying to be a pundit.

1. Embrace Mind’s Malleability

Understand that the mind is not fixed and can be changed through practice, leading to a richer and more amazing life; commit to exploring these methods.

2. Cultivate Pause Between Thought and Action

Practice meditation to create a crucial ‘split second’ of time between an impulse or thought and your reaction, allowing you to choose a more skillful response.

3. Identify and Work with Mental Tendencies

Through practice, become aware of your mind’s preset qualities or negative tendencies, recognizing them as changeable ‘overlays’ rather than your true self, and actively work to modify them.

4. Disengage from Mental Habits

Realize that you are not defined by your mental habits and conditioning; instead, cultivate the ability to catch these patterns and consciously make different decisions.

5. Practice Self-Diminishment to Grow in Love

Actively work to diminish the volume of self-centered thinking, not through self-deprecation, but by understanding the self as a temporary construction, allowing an attitude of ‘how can I help’ and love to naturally emerge.

6. View Self and Others as Temporary

Recognize that suffering often arises from viewing self and others as solid and permanent; instead, perceive them as temporary energy bursts to reduce psychic pain.

7. Cultivate Positive Mind States

Recognize that a continuum of mind states exists, from dismal to luminous, and actively work towards spending more time in states of freedom, generosity, and wonder.

8. Begin Spiritual Practice Early and Fervently

Start spiritual practice, such as meditation, at a young age and with great fervor, as the ego is stubborn and early, intense effort leads to tremendous progress, despite the uphill battle.

9. Cultivate Awareness for Authentic Kindness

To practice true kindness, cultivate a high degree of awareness to gather actual data about another person’s needs, while also monitoring your own mind to avoid projecting a ‘savior complex’ or overriding what is truly needed.

10. Differentiate Kindness from Niceness

Understand that kindness is not merely bland agreeability or niceness; it is an alert, aware response that provides what is truly needed, even if it requires forceful intervention.

11. Respond to Internal Voices with Gentleness

When distracting or self-aggrandizing thoughts arise, respond with gentleness, humor, and acceptance rather than self-castigation, then redirect focus back to the task.

12. Deconstruct the Permanent Self

Recognize that the various internal voices, instincts, and feelings are temporary ‘brain farts’ rather than a permanent, central self, which can destabilize the illusion of a fixed identity.

13. Skillfully Leverage Personal Motivations

Instead of suppressing desires like praise or attention, skillfully use their energy in a functional way for creative work, extracting the negative aspects and retaining the positive drive to elevate your art.

14. Resist Autopilot, Juggle Life Acutely

Avoid the ‘autopilot’ tendency to make one-time life dedications; instead, recognize that life requires constant juggling of many things, and the quality of life depends on the acuity of this juggling.

15. Accept Imperfection and Stumbling

Let go of the pursuit of perfection and instead be okay with the messy, stumbling process of life, accepting that everything is happening at once.

16. Prioritize Meditation for Embodied Realization

If the goal is to embody spiritual insights rather than just understand them intellectually, prioritize meditation as it is a more powerful route than writing for this realization.

17. Integrate Writing into Spiritual Practice

View writing not just as a separate activity, but as an integral part of your overall spiritual practice, using its challenges and insights for personal growth.

18. Find Internal Corollaries for Others

To understand other people or characters, search for a corresponding part or experience within yourself, believing in your ability to summon that internal corollary to foster empathy.

19. Practice Increased Specificity and Attention

When encountering others, move beyond vague labels to seek increased specificity about their motivations and experiences, which is a form of heightened attention and can be equated with love.

20. Recognize Initial Judgments as First Drafts

When making instant judgments about others (e.g., in traffic), recognize these as ‘first drafts’ and remember that more information would likely reveal a different, more nuanced story, fostering a less judgmental attitude.

21. Use Writing to Lessen Rumination

Engage in writing as a high-attention mode, focusing on the text and intuitive reactions without internal narration or rational decision-making, which can quiet the ‘monkey mind’ and reduce rumination.

22. Engage in Daily Writing and Meditation

Practice writing for several hours daily and engage in meditation, as these activities can lead to a happier state of mind and neurological pleasure.

23. Distance Self from Negative Emotions

When experiencing frustration or self-loathing during creative work, recognize these feelings as temporary parts of the process rather than permanent realities, creating distance from the torment.

24. Cultivate Patience in Revision

Embrace a patient approach to rigorous revision, understanding that it’s a long process that will eventually lead to good results, making it part of the enjoyable challenge.

25. Work Consistently for Creative Inspiration

Understand that creative inspiration (’the muse’) visits those who are actively engaged in their work, so maintain consistent effort rather than waiting for inspiration to strike.

26. Embrace the Crappy First Draft

Accept and embrace the necessity of producing a ‘crappy first draft’ to get initial ideas down, understanding that true quality emerges through iterative revision rather than initial perfection.

27. Celebrate Bad Writing as Active Taste

When your own writing seems bad, view it as a positive sign that your critical taste and discernment are still active, rather than a cause for despair.

28. Allow Love to Emerge from Quiet Mind

Cultivate a quiet mind through practices like meditation, as this allows qualities like love and kindness to emerge naturally, like water filling a basket, without conscious effort.

29. Beware of Backdoor Ego in Self-Deprecation

Be aware that self-deprecation can be a subtle form of self-aggrandizement or ‘backdoor ego,’ reinforcing a sense of self-importance rather than genuinely diminishing it.

30. View Self-Diminishment as a Blessing

See the natural process of aging, making mistakes, and experiencing loss as a blessing, as it diminishes the illusion of being the center of the universe and not meant to go on forever.

31. Elevate Kindness in Intellectual Discourse

Actively incorporate kindness as a real and important intellectual concept in public discourse, recognizing its core role in human life and avoiding the dysfunction of its absence.

32. Respect Mystery, Avoid Programmatic Thinking

Approach art and life with a deep respect for mystery, avoiding the tendency to nail things down too tightly or be overly programmatic, allowing for freedom and openness.

33. Cultivate Open, Listening Mode for Understanding

When trying to understand complex or disturbing phenomena, resist the urge to form theories or make quick judgments; instead, cultivate an open, listening mode to absorb information and let it percolate without closing things off.

34. Employ Engaging, Even Angry Kindness

Recognize that true kindness may sometimes require an ’edge,’ such as protective or even angry kindness, especially when it involves standing up for principles or engaging in necessary confrontation, rather than avoiding conflict.

His suffering, he realizes, comes from viewing his son as solid when, in fact, they are both, and I'm quoting here, just energy bursts or two passing temporarinesses.

Dan Harris (quoting George Saunders' novel)

Nobody likes writing a book. Everybody likes having written a book.

Dan Harris (attributing to an unnamed author)

The ego I'm finding is so amazingly stubborn. And at 62, I can kind of say, oh, boy, this is something that one should start young and do with great fervor. The progress that can be made is tremendous, but it really is. It's really like rolling that stone uphill, I think. No matter where I go, the ego is there and it's always a little bit smarter than I am.

George Saunders

And so a prediction and my heartfelt wish for you. As you get older, your self will diminish and you will grow in love. You will gradually be replaced by love.

George Saunders

You don't have to believe it, but it's true.

Dan Harris (quoting Munindraji)

The muse does visit, but she needs to find you working.

Dan Harris (attributing to an unnamed artist, possibly Picasso)
2017
Man Booker Prize won by 'Lincoln in the Bardo' For Best Work of Fiction in English.
10 other books
Number of books George Saunders has written (including 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain') Excluding 'Lincoln in the Bardo'.
4-5 hours, 6 hours
Daily duration George Saunders tries to write As long as he can every day.
62
Age of George Saunders At the time of the conversation, reflecting on life and practice.
20 years
Years George Saunders has taught his literature for writers class at Syracuse Teaching 19th-century Russian stories.
600-700
Approximate number of applications received annually for his writing class For a class that selects a small number of students.
6
Number of students selected for his writing class From hundreds of applications.
20
Total number of students in his writing class These are selected students studying literature for writers.
7
Number of Russian stories analyzed in 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain' Stories by Turgenev, Tolstoy, Gogol, and Chekhov.