What Is Nirvana? | Robert Thurman

Dec 13, 2021 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dan Harris interviews Robert Thurman, Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia University and President of Tibet House U.S., about the Buddhist Four Noble Truths, the concept of nirvana, and the importance of cultivating cheerfulness and wisdom even amidst suffering.

At a Glance
28 Insights
39m 53s Duration
9 Topics
5 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Robert Thurman and His Background

Robert Thurman's New Book: Wisdom is Bliss

The Four Friendly Fun Facts (Four Noble Truths)

The Buddha as a Scientist and Non-Dogmatic Teacher

Robert Thurman's Personal '3% Happiness' and 'Safe Misery'

Understanding Nirvana: The Uncreated and Transparency

Critique of Western Scientific Materialism and Its Dangers

The Importance of Cheerfulness in Activism and Problem Solving

Robert Thurman's 'Consolation Prize' of Retroactive Nirvana

Four Friendly Fun Facts

This is Robert Thurman's contemporary transposition of the Buddha's Four Noble Truths. They are: acknowledging suffering, understanding its cause, realizing freedom from suffering (nirvana), and following the educational path to achieve that freedom.

Nirvana

Nirvana is described as the world as it truly is, freedom from suffering, and the 'uncreated' reality that underlies everything. It is like a transparent screen upon which the 'movie' of suffering is projected, meaning none of the suffering is truly happening in an ultimate sense.

Enlightenment (Buddhist perspective)

Enlightenment is characterized as the 'supreme tolerance of cognitive dissonance,' the ability to hold two seemingly opposite truths in the mind simultaneously without conflict, such as the existence of immense suffering and the underlying perfection of reality.

Three Educations (Eightfold Path)

The path to realizing nirvana involves three types of education: ethical education (cultivating kindness and altruism), mental education (meditation and mind control), and scientific or wisdom education (critically deconstructing delusional reality to perceive true reality).

Scientific Materialism Critique

Robert Thurman argues that Western scientific materialism, while freeing us from blind faith, has become a new form of blind faith that is dangerous. He suggests it's scientifically incorrect to believe that nothing will solve all problems or that there are no consequences to destroying the planet.

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What are the Buddha's Four Noble Truths?

The Four Noble Truths, or 'Friendly Fun Facts' as Robert Thurman calls them, are: the friendly fact of suffering, the friendly fact of the cause of suffering, the prognosis that freedom from suffering (nirvana) is the underlying reality, and the educational curriculum (the path) to stop suffering and recognize nirvana.

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Why does Robert Thurman translate 'Noble Truths' as 'Friendly Fun Facts'?

He prefers 'fact' because 'truth' can imply a belief or proposition, whereas Buddha was non-dogmatic and wanted people to acknowledge, understand, realize, and practice these concepts, not just blindly believe them. 'Friendly' and 'fun' emphasize the positive, liberating nature of these facts.

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What does it mean that 'it's all nirvana anyway'?

This means that nirvana refers to the absolute nature of everything, which is inexpressible and 'uncreated.' It suggests that the world of suffering is like a projection on a pure, problem-free white screen, and that the relative world is actually the absolute, empty of any non-relational element but happening because things can relate.

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Why does Robert Thurman, a long-time Buddhist practitioner, still describe himself as 'miserable'?

He explains that he is still 'stuck in his conditioning,' wanting the world to be as it 'should be' and getting upset by global problems. He feels a duty to fix these issues but also acknowledges his lack of power, leading to unhappiness, though he maintains confidence in eventually reaching full bliss.

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How can one develop cheerfulness amidst global suffering?

One can train themselves to be cheerful by choosing constructive responses (like a cup of tea instead of a fist fight) and using intelligence to realize that terrible problems will only be solved if we stay cheerful. Anger accomplishes nothing, so the approach should be to make a plan and be happy, not angry.

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Why was Robert Thurman 'lucky' to lose an eye at 20?

Losing his eye at 20 enabled him to have a 'midlife crisis' much earlier than usual, prompting him to drop out of Harvard and go on a spiritual quest to India, where he sought answers about how the mind works.

1. Realize Freedom from Suffering

Realize, know, and experience that the reality underlying suffering is freedom from suffering, or nirvana, rather than just believing it.

2. Practice Path to Nirvana

Practice the educational curriculum, or path, to stop suffering and recognize the nirvana quality of everything, aiming for 100% happiness by eliminating error about reality.

3. Embrace Love in Relations

When you understand the true nature of reality, realize that love is all you can do in your relations with things, leading to an effortless 100% positive outlook.

4. Tolerate Cognitive Dissonance

Cultivate the ability to hold two opposite things in your mind simultaneously without damaging either, as this tolerance of cognitive dissonance is a sign of a great mind and enlightenment.

5. Overthrow Scientific Materialism

Challenge the idea that scientific materialism is the superior and final answer to all philosophy, as it is a dangerous and scientifically incorrect belief.

6. Develop Strong Happiness

Develop a strong degree of happiness as a worldly and spiritual duty, aiming to be so happy that you would die happy even if killed, demonstrating the mind’s malleability.

7. Stay Cheerful to Solve Problems

Realize that all terrible problems will never be solved unless you stay cheerful, as cheerfulness enables patience and systematic thinking.

8. Avoid Anger in Activism

Avoid anger when addressing problems, as it accomplishes nothing; instead, be patient and think systematically, and don’t expose yourself to those who profit from provoking anger.

9. Make a Plan, Be Happy

When dealing with activist issues, make a plan and prioritize being happy, rather than getting angry, to effectively address the problems.

10. Be Happy Activists

Engage in activism for global problems with a strong degree of happiness and cheerfulness, avoiding hatred towards evildoers to prevent further violence.

11. Cultivate Love, Kindness, Happiness

Cultivate love, kindness, and happiness as a core part of your life, connecting your profession to following your bliss to benefit yourself and others.

12. Learn Deeper States of Awareness

Learn how to control your mind and understand the deeper nature of the altered states of awareness that human beings can achieve, as this is part of the skill and art of life.

13. Counter ‘Ignorance is Bliss’

Counter the saying ‘ignorance is bliss’ by understanding that wisdom is bliss, as knowing and experiencing the full reality brings freedom, not fear.

14. Acknowledge Suffering

Acknowledge the friendly fact of suffering to avoid placing false expectations on regular, normal, self-centered interactions, as this is the first step in Buddha’s path to happiness.

15. Understand Cause of Suffering

Understand how suffering happens and the reason for it, which is the cause of it, as this is the second friendly fact and diagnosis of the problem.

16. Challenge Delusional Awareness

Acknowledge that our normal delusional awareness, which makes us think we are the center of everything, is unworkable and will lead to frustration.

17. Identify Altruistically with Others

Identify with more people altruistically, recognizing that others are as important as you, to increase your own happiness by helping them be happy.

18. Follow Three Educations

Follow the three educations – ethical, mental (meditation), and scientific/wisdom – as part of the path to realize nirvana and freedom from suffering.

19. Cultivate Ethical Harmony

Cultivate a more harmonious way of relating to others through ethical education, focusing on kindness, love, and altruism, before pursuing deeper realizations.

20. Deconstruct Delusional Reality

Engage in scientific or wisdom education to actively disbelieve that what you habitually perceive is the real reality, critically deconstructing delusional perceptions.

21. Build Meditation on Ethics

Ensure meditation is built upon a foundation of ethics and critical analysis of delusional reality to effectively reach toward the real, bliss reality.

22. Don’t Blindly Believe

Avoid blind faith or belief in teachings just because they are stated; instead, seek to understand and experience them, as Buddha was non-dogmatic.

23. Don’t Convert Others

Do not aim to convert others to Buddhism or any other religion; instead, follow the Dalai Lama’s advice to help people convert to their own better self from within themselves.

24. Keep Grandmother’s Religion

Follow the Dalai Lama’s advice to keep your grandmother’s religion, implying respect for one’s inherited spiritual or cultural background.

25. Train for Cheerfulness

Train yourself to be cheerful in daily life, choosing peaceful responses like having a cup of tea instead of engaging in conflict.

26. Stay Cheerful While Changing

When trying to make change in a world filled with horrors and obstacles, it helps to stay cheerful while going about your business, as argued passionately by the guest.

27. Retroactively Enjoy Moments

Find consolation in the understanding that upon achieving full bliss in the future, you will retroactively experience all past moments, including current struggles, as nirvana.

28. Have Midlife Crisis Early

Consider a midlife crisis at a younger age, like 20, as potentially lucky because it can enable an earlier spiritual quest and self-discovery.

Enlightenment is the supreme tolerance of cognitive dissonance.

Robert Thurman

It is our duty, worldly duty, as well as a spiritual duty, to develop such a strong degree of happiness, to be so happy that even if they kill us, we'll die happy.

Robert Thurman

The sign of a great mind is the ability to hold two opposite things in the mind at once without damaging either one and without exploding the mind.

F. Scott Fitzgerald (quoted by Robert Thurman)

When you're angry, you accomplish nothing.

Robert Thurman

My mission in this country is to overthrow your idea that your science and your appreciation of reality is the superior one of all time.

Robert Thurman

Everyone should keep their grandmother's religion.

Dalai Lama (quoted by Robert Thurman)

80 is not that old.

Nena Thurman (quoted by Robert Thurman)
80
Robert Thurman's age At the time of the interview.
80
Nena Thurman's age Robert Thurman's wife, also at the time of the interview.
3%
Robert Thurman's current happiness level His self-assessed percentage of happiness, with the remaining 97% being 'safe misery'.
3%
Visible universe The portion of the universe modern scientists can see, according to Robert Thurman.
97%
Dark matter and dark energy The portion of the universe that is invisible and unknown to modern scientists, according to Robert Thurman.
60 years
Years Robert Thurman has been practicing and studying Dharma His duration of engagement with Buddhist teachings.
20
Age Robert Thurman had a 'midlife crisis' Due to losing an eye, which he considers lucky compared to the typical age of 45.