Next Time You're Suffering, Ask Yourself This Question | Caverly Morgan

Aug 20, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Caverly Morgan, a meditation teacher and founder of Peace in Schools, discusses non-duality and the illusion of self. She shares practices like SNAP and questioning what leads to suffering to help listeners achieve liberation and deeper self-awareness.

At a Glance
26 Insights
1h 3m Duration
16 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to the Illusion of Self and Non-Duality

Why Question the Nature of the Self in Meditation

Dan's Experience with the 'No-Self' Concept

Kaverly's Journey: Panic Attacks to Experiencing Vast Awareness

Understanding 'Being Aware' as Simple Presence

The Interplay of Effort and Effortlessness in Practice

Buddhist Concepts: Relative and Ultimate Truth

Integrating Absolute and Relative Truths in Daily Life

Practical Approach to 'Hanging Out in Awareness'

Joseph Goldstein's Practices for Glimpsing No-Self

The Joy of 'Practicing the Non-Practice'

The Question: What Leads Towards or Away from Suffering?

Understanding Love as the Absence of Separation

Differentiating 'No-Self' from Self-Abnegation

Fleshing Out Our Conditioning: Personal and Collective

Kaverly Morgan's Books and Resources

Illusion of the Self (No-Self/Non-Duality)

This is the idea that the 'self' or 'ego' we identify with is not a fixed, findable entity but an insubstantial, illusory construct made up of component parts like thoughts and sensations. Realizing this can cut through suffering and reveal a sense of vastness or interconnectedness.

Contemplative Cross-Training

This refers to the practice of combining different meditation skills, such as the ability to focus or concentrate, metacognition (mindfulness or self-awareness), and the capacity to tap into non-duality or 'no-self.' These skills are mutually reinforcing, meaning improvement in one area enhances the others.

Relative Truth

This is our consensual, everyday reality where we perceive ourselves as separate individuals, time is linear, and we interact with the world as distinct objects and people. It's the 'movie in which we live,' where practical concerns like calendars and appointments are real.

Ultimate (Absolute) Truth

This is a deeper reality beyond our everyday perceptions, where things are seen as they truly are, such as the interconnectedness of all phenomena, the emptiness of inherent existence, and the illusion of a separate self. It's like taking a high-powered microscope to a chair and seeing it as spinning subatomic particles rather than a solid object.

SNAP Practice

An acronym for 'See it, Name it, Allow it, Presence,' this is a mindfulness practice designed to help disidentify from the conditioned mind. One 'sees' a thought or pattern, 'names' it (e.g., 'inner critic'), 'allows' it (which implies letting go), and then 'returns to presence' by simply being aware of being aware.

Fleshing Out Our Conditioning

This practice involves identifying and articulating habitual storylines and beliefs that unconsciously drive behavior. By bringing these patterns into conscious awareness, individuals can disidentify from them, revealing their true, unconditioned nature and reducing the influence of automated responses.

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Why is it important to explore the concept of 'no-self' in meditation practice?

Exploring 'no-self' helps prevent the ego from adopting spiritual language and reinforcing a limited, striving sense of self, which can lead to exhaustion and feeling that liberation is always out of reach.

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How can one begin to understand or experience the 'vastness' or 'being aware' that meditation teachers describe?

It can be as simple as realizing that your own being is naturally aware; you don't need to apply effort to be aware of sounds, sensations, or thoughts. This awareness itself is vast and not limited by personal efforts.

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What is the difference between trying to get back to the present moment and 'returning to presence'?

Trying to get back to the present moment often reinforces a linear view of time and a limited 'me' striving, whereas 'returning to presence' is about relaxing the attention and surrendering to the natural, effortless awareness that is already present, recognizing that 'now' is the only reality.

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How can one 'shine the light back into the flashlight' or relax attention to experience one's own being?

When you notice your attention bouncing or ruminating, recognize that you are aware of this activity. Instead of trying to force attention elsewhere, surrender to the natural awareness that is already knowing what's happening. This allows awareness to come to the forefront effortlessly.

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How can one combine meditation practices with the understanding of 'no-self' without losing the benefits of effort?

You can 'practice the non-practice' by recognizing your inherent wholeness and effortless awareness, while still engaging in practices like concentration or mindfulness. This approach allows practices to be fueled by joy and a different understanding, rather than a sense of insufficiency.

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How can the question 'What leads towards suffering and what leads away from it?' be used in daily life?

In any situation, especially when clinging to being 'right' or engaging in habitual patterns, asking this question helps reveal the likely outcome of your actions or mindset. It prompts you to consider if your current approach will lead to deeper connection and freedom or further suffering.

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How is the concept of 'love' connected to the understanding of 'no-self'?

Love, particularly 'capital L' Love, is experienced when the distorted view of a separate self falls away. When there is a recognition of the unity of being and shared existence, the experience is inherently one of love, as the perceived separation between individuals collapses.

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How does the Buddhist concept of 'no-self' differ from feeling like 'nobody cares about me' or having low self-esteem?

'No-self' is not about self-abnegation or diminishing oneself; it refers to the illusion of a fixed, separate ego. The ego can manifest as both puffed-up pride and extreme self-criticism. True 'no-self' understanding transcends both extremes, recognizing inherent wholeness rather than a diminished self.

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What is the benefit of 'fleshing out our conditioning'?

This practice helps bring unconscious, habitual storylines and beliefs (e.g., 'I'm only lovable if...') into conscious awareness. By seeing these conditioned patterns, individuals can disidentify from them, which helps reveal their true, unconditioned nature and reduces being driven by automated responses.

1. Question Your Sense of Self

Actively explore the question ‘Who am I really?’ in your direct experience, especially during meditation, to challenge egoic patterns and conditioned behaviors that reinforce a limited sense of self. This helps avoid reinforcing the idea of a ’limited me’ striving in practice.

2. Inquire into ‘What is Aware?’

While practicing mindfulness and paying attention to what you are aware of, also ask the question, ‘What is aware of these things?’ This simple inquiry helps shift focus from the objects of awareness to the awareness itself, recognizing your being as naturally vast and aware.

3. Recognize Awareness as Vastness

Beyond befriending yourself, recognize that you are not merely your limited experiences but the vastness of awareness in which these experiences arise. This shift in perspective can lead to a different, more liberating experience.

4. Realize Your True Nature as Love

Cultivate the understanding that your true nature is love, which is experienced when the illusion of a separate, limited self falls away. This recognition allows you to approach interactions from a place of unity and deep connection.

5. Realize You Are Unconditional Love

Recognize yourself as the source of unconditional love, rather than just someone who offers it. This realization, stemming from the understanding of your vast, inherently aware, and loving nature, profoundly shifts your practice and reduces strenuous effort.

6. Integrate Relative & Ultimate Truths

Understand and navigate life by moving seamlessly between ‘relative truth’ (our everyday consensual reality) and ‘ultimate truth’ (the underlying reality where the self is illusory and interconnected). Let the ultimate inform how you engage with the relative.

7. Practice from Wholeness

Approach meditation and self-improvement practices from a place of knowing you are already whole and complete, rather than being fueled by the desire to ‘get better.’ This paradoxical mindset can enhance progress by reducing effort and frustration.

8. Offer Unconditional Self-Reassurance

Learn to offer unconditionally loving reassurances to yourself, befriending yourself completely, especially in situations where you feel pressured or experience negative self-talk. This practice can change your relationship with your perceived self and provide an advocate.

9. Self-Compassion for Wholeness

Practice self-compassion not merely as a technique to feel better, but as an invitation to return to your inherent wholeness, recognizing your true nature. This approach transcends a ‘band-aid’ solution and fosters a deeper sense of well-being.

10. Avoid Self-Diminishing Ego

Be aware that the ego can manifest not only as puffed-up self-importance but also as self-diminishing thoughts like ‘I’m nobody.’ The concept of ’no self’ is not about self-abnegation but seeing through the illusion of a separate, limited self in all its forms.

11. Use the SNAP Practice

When identified with the conditioned mind, use SNAP: See it (recognize identification), Name it (e.g., ‘inner critic’), Allow it (for letting go), and Presence (return to being aware that you are aware). This shifts from striving to resting in awareness.

12. Relax Attention Back to Being

Instead of constantly directing your attention outwards, allow it to soften and relax, drawing back into itself like a flashlight beam. This allows attention to return to its ‘home base’ of simply being, directly experiencing your own being.

13. Surrender to Natural Awareness

When you notice your mind ruminating or attention bouncing, recognize that you are aware of this activity. Instead of forcing attention, surrender to this natural, effortless awareness, allowing it to come to the forefront of your experience.

14. Recognize Effortless Knowing

Gently move a limb or feel your breath and notice that the raw knowing of sensations or thoughts is effortless. Incorporate the word ’effortless’ into your mind during practices like walking or breathing to reinforce that knowing does not require effort.

15. Use Passive Voice & ‘Known by What?’

During meditation or daily activities, use the passive voice (e.g., ‘breathing is being known’), then add ‘by what?’ to investigate who or what is taking delivery of mental packages. This offers glimpses of the unfindable self.

16. Investigate Sensory Experience

Gently look for the ‘self’ by asking ‘what’s hearing?’ or ‘what’s seeing?’ or ‘who’s taking delivery of these sensory packages?’ This practice can reveal the absence of a fixed self and lead to a feeling of vastness, cutting through suffering.

17. Practice the Non-Practice of Being

While recognizing that returning to your own being is effortless, actively engage in ‘practicing the non-practice’ by being aware of the knowing itself, even during simple activities. This stabilizes your knowing of yourself as presence.

18. Embrace Perfect Imperfection

Hold the paradox that you are perfect just as you are, yet there’s always room for improvement. This perspective allows you to engage in practices with joy and from a place of wholeness, rather than striving from deficiency.

19. Supercharge Practices with Unity

Enhance the effectiveness of any practice, such as communication skills, by approaching it with the understanding that you are not separate from others and share the same being. This recognition of unity can significantly amplify positive effects.

20. Ask ‘What Leads to Suffering?’

In any situation, especially when clinging to being ‘right’ or engaging in habitual patterns, ask yourself: ‘Does this lead towards suffering or away from it?’ This helps identify and disengage from behaviors that ultimately cause distress.

21. Project Behavioral Outcomes

Before acting on an impulse or habitual behavior, ask yourself, ‘What would the outcome of that be?’ or ‘Where do you see it going?’ This helps you realize if your actions will lead to desired results or perpetuate unhelpful patterns.

22. Ask ‘Would it Help?’

When feeling stressed or caught in a difficult situation, ask yourself ‘Would it help?’ to assess the utility of your current emotional or mental state. This question can help you disengage from unhelpful reactions.

23. Reduce Self-Centeredness for Love

Understand that reducing identification with the ego or ‘self’ naturally makes you more loving and generous. By turning down the volume on the ego, you become more available and connected to others.

24. Flesh Out Personal Conditioning

Use prompts like ‘In order to be loved, I need to…’ to bring unconscious, habitual storylines and conditioned beliefs into awareness. This practice helps you see what drives your behavior and disidentify from these limitations.

25. Flesh Out Collective Conditioning

Apply the ‘fleshing out conditioning’ practice to collective groups you identify with by answering prompts like ‘As [collective identity], I’m only lovable if…’ This helps reveal and disidentify from collective conditioning.

26. Practice Contemplative Cross-Training

Engage in ‘contemplative cross-training’ by practicing various skills like focus, mindfulness, and tapping into non-duality. These skills are mutually reinforcing and beneficial for different situations.

I spent years practicing mindfulness, even training monastically, and I don't feel that I was directly facing the question, but who am I really?

Kaverly Morgan

When I look for where's Dan or another way to do it is what's hearing, what's seeing, you know, who's taking delivery of these sensory packages. I found that when I look, I see that there's I have a sense of me, but that's separate from I can't link that ghostly inner sense of Dan to the hearing or to the seeing or to the thinking. It's all it's very mysterious. And when I knock on that door, I get a vertiginous feeling of vastness.

Dan Harris

The flashlight, the light of the flashlight, were allowed to just draw back into the flashlight itself. That the light of the flashlight could just go in the other direction for a moment. That the attention could actually relax instead of I've been habituated to train the attention to be in these other places, to have an object that's of the present moment as an anchor.

Kaverly Morgan

The raw knowing of sensation or even mentation, you know, thinking is effortless.

Dan Harris

Does this lead towards suffering or away from it?

Kaverly Morgan

What do they call orgasm in French? Isn't it, isn't it a little death?

Dan Harris

It's more important that the retreatant has the experience of being the one that reassures the part of them that is hurt or in need than it is that that part gets reassured.

Kaverly Morgan

The ego can be puffed up and the ego can be, I'm the biggest piece of shit, right? So that's not the no self we're talking about.

Kaverly Morgan

SNAP Practice (See it, Name it, Allow it, Presence)

Kaverly Morgan
  1. See it: Notice that your attention is identified with a limited, conditioned mind (e.g., habitual thoughts, inner critic).
  2. Name it: Identify what's happening (e.g., 'that's just the inner critic,' 'that's rumination').
  3. Allow it: Allow for a letting go of the identification with the conditioned mind.
  4. Return to Presence: Relax the attention and return to simply being aware that you are aware, resting in your own being.

Joseph Goldstein's Glimpse of No-Self Practice

Dan Harris
  1. Gently move a limb (e.g., arm) and notice the sensations of movement.
  2. Recognize that the knowing of these sensations is effortless.
  3. Use the passive voice to describe experience (e.g., 'breathing is being known,' 'movement is being known,' 'seeing is being known').
  4. Add the question 'by what?' to investigate who or what is taking delivery of these mental packages.

Fleshing Out Our Conditioning (Personal)

Kaverly Morgan
  1. Reflect on and complete prompts that reveal habitual storylines and beliefs driving behavior, such as: 'In order to be loved, I need to...', 'During times of conflict, I should...', 'My parents always taught me that...', 'I deserve...', 'I'll be comfortable when...', 'I'll be happy when...', 'I know I should avoid...', 'If only...', 'Other people would be happy if I...', 'It's best not to...', 'I'm usually afraid of...', 'To feel successful I need to...', 'The thing I should most watch out for is...', 'I never seem to be able to...'
  2. Allow your conditioning, not enlightened answers, to reveal how it keeps you in a box.
  3. Bring these usually hidden patterns into awareness to disidentify from them.

Fleshing Out Our Conditioning (Collective)

Kaverly Morgan
  1. Take the same prompts as the personal practice.
  2. Apply them to a collective group you identify with (e.g., 'As a white woman raised in the South, I'm only lovable if...').
  3. Share notes with someone who identifies with another collective and has used the same prompts.
  4. This practice helps reveal how collective suffering is maintained and played out.