Becoming a goat to avoid existential dread (with Thomas Thwaites)
Spencer Greenberg speaks with designer Thomas Thwaites about his projects, including making a toaster from raw materials and attempting to live as a goat, to explore the complexity of modern civilization and question the idea of progress.
Deep Dive Analysis
20 Topic Outline
Introduction to Thomas Thwaites and the Toaster Project
Deconstructing a Cheap Electric Toaster
Simplifying Materials for the Toaster Project
Sourcing and Smelting Iron Ore
Challenges of Traditional Smelting and Microwave Method
Sourcing Copper, Mica, and Plastic
The Anthropocene and Mining Waste Plastic
Assembling and Testing the Homemade Toaster
Reflections on the Toaster Project and Societal Complexity
Civilizational Knowledge and the 'I Pencil' Essay
Corporations as 'Slow AI' and the Alignment Problem
The Goatman Project: Seeking a Holiday from Being Human
Understanding Goat Cognition and Human-Animal Differences
The Challenge of Physical Transformation into a Quadruped
The Artificial Rumen and Dietary Challenges
Living with Goats and Social Hierarchy
Reflections on the Goatman Project and the Idea of Progress
The Harmless Car Project: Designing Without Harm
Cowboy Earth vs. Spaceship Earth
Agency, Collaboration, and the Politics of Technology
6 Key Concepts
Episodic Memory
This is the human ability to form memories into stories, recall past scenarios, imagine them differently, and project them into the future, a process known as mental time travel. Goats are not believed to possess this capacity to the same extent as humans.
Anthropocene
A proposed new geological age, characterized by significant and lasting human impact on Earth's geology and ecosystems. Geologists theorize that future alien geologists would find traces of human civilization in rock strata, including increased radioactivity, mass extinctions, and the sudden appearance of plastic molecules.
Civilizational Knowledge
This refers to the vast, distributed knowledge required to create complex objects or systems, where no single individual possesses all the necessary understanding. It highlights how modern society relies on collective, specialized expertise that can be lost or forgotten over time.
Corporations as Slow AI
A concept by science fiction writer Ted Chiang, which characterizes large, complex corporations as a form of artificial general intelligence. These entities are highly effective at optimizing for specific outcomes, possessing an institutional intelligence distinct from the individual interests of the people within them.
Alignment Problem (Economic Context)
This is the challenge of ensuring that large-scale systems, such as the entire economy or corporations (viewed as 'slow AI'), operate in alignment with the best interests of individual humans and broader societal benefit. It's a fundamental societal challenge to guide these 'intelligences' towards positive outcomes.
Cowboy Earth vs. Spaceship Earth
These are two contrasting mental models for humanity's relationship with the planet, proposed by Buckminster Fuller. 'Cowboy Earth' assumes the environment is vast and its resources inexhaustible, making human impacts seem insignificant. 'Spaceship Earth' views the planet as a closed, finite system, requiring careful resource management and waste recycling, similar to a long space voyage.
7 Questions Answered
A cheap electric toaster, costing only a few pounds, contains over 400 individual pieces made from about 100 different discrete materials, many sourced globally, highlighting its impossible complexity for individual creation.
No, an individual cannot realistically make a complex modern product like a toaster from raw materials due to the immense complexity, specialized knowledge, and global supply chains involved, as demonstrated by the Toaster Project.
Individually, modern humans are likely not smarter than people from hundreds or thousands of years ago; rather, we have access to more tools and a vast, distributed 'civilizational knowledge' that has accumulated over time.
Humans possess episodic memory, allowing them to form memories into stories, mentally time travel, and imagine future scenarios, abilities not thought to exist in goats to the same extent.
While technology can assist, fundamental anatomical differences (e.g., collarbones, nuchal ligament) prevent humans from fully replicating animal movements like galloping or jumping without risk of serious injury.
It is likely impossible to design anything that is completely harmless to all forms of life throughout its entire lifecycle, as every design choice inherently involves placing benefits and harms somewhere.
Design inherently involves political choices because designers constantly decide who will benefit from a product and who will be harmed, whether in the present or future, making it a matter of justice.
25 Actionable Insights
1. Cultivate Agency Through Difficult Projects
Choose difficult projects outside your comfort zone and actively pursue them, embracing personal agency and collaborating with experts to overcome challenges and gain new insights.
2. Flex Project Rules for Learning
For self-directed projects, be prepared to bend or break your initial rules if strict adherence hinders progress or detracts from the core learning objectives.
3. Consult Specialized Experts
For complex or unusual projects, reach out to experts in highly specialized fields, as they often appreciate the unique perspective and may provide valuable guidance or resources.
4. Research Deeply, Pivot Early
Conduct thorough research into your initial project ideas, as a deeper understanding might reveal unforeseen complexities or misalignments, prompting you to pivot to a more suitable path.
5. Simplify Overwhelming Projects
When a complex task seems impossible due to too many components or materials, simplify it by identifying and focusing on only the most essential elements to make it achievable.
6. Adapt & Experiment Quickly
If a traditional or initial approach to a complex problem proves too slow or difficult, seek out unconventional and more convenient methods to experiment and iterate faster.
7. Consult Historical Practical Guides
If contemporary scientific explanations are too complex for direct application, look to historical texts or experimental archaeology for simpler, more practical methods and diagrams.
8. Mine Secondary Material Sources
If obtaining raw materials is difficult, consider sourcing them from waste streams or recycled goods, especially when this aligns with the project’s conceptual goals or sustainability.
9. Understand Foundational Complexity
To gain a profound understanding of your profession and the world’s interconnectedness, try to create a product or service entirely from its raw, fundamental components, similar to a chef growing their own ingredients.
10. Viscerally Understand Civilization’s Scale
Undertake projects that force you to confront the immense, interconnected complexity and collective human effort behind everyday objects, leading to a deeper, emotional understanding of civilization.
11. Appreciate Hidden Product Complexity
Understand that even inexpensive, common products contain hundreds of individual parts from diverse global sources, revealing an “impossibly complex” manufacturing and supply chain.
12. Embrace Distributed Knowledge
Recognize that complex societal functions and products rely on distributed knowledge across many individuals and institutions, rather than complete understanding by any single person.
13. Understand Capitalism’s Optimization Bias
Recognize that capitalism, while efficient, primarily optimizes for low cost and convenience, and requires external regulation to align with broader societal and environmental goals.
14. Re-evaluate Disposable Consumption
Question the sustainability of manufacturing practices that produce cheap, easily discarded goods, and consider the long-term environmental impact of such a trajectory.
15. Confront Inevitable Harms in Design
When designing or creating, acknowledge that true harmlessness is often impossible; instead, explicitly consider and choose who or what will bear the inevitable harms, making it a political and ethical decision.
16. Widen Tech’s Purpose Conversation
Actively engage in and broaden the public conversation about technology’s purpose, its interaction with the economy, and its impact on lives, especially as decision-making power consolidates.
17. Seek “Human Holiday” Experiences
If feeling overwhelmed by human worries and the complexities of life, seek experiences that allow you to temporarily step away from human concerns and embrace a simpler, more present state of being.
18. Question Linear Progress Narratives
Critically examine and question the ingrained societal narrative of linear human progress, recognizing it as a story rather than an absolute truth, and consider alternative philosophies of existence.
19. Challenge Anthropocentric Hierarchies
Recognize that all species are equally evolved and specialized for their environments, challenging the anthropocentric view of humans being at the top of an evolutionary pyramid.
20. Acknowledge Limits of Understanding
When exploring complex questions about consciousness or experience, acknowledge the inherent “problem of other minds” and the limitations in truly knowing another being’s internal state.
21. Understand Neuroscience’s Current Limits
Acknowledge that current neuroscience is far from being able to fundamentally alter or replicate complex mental states, such as experiencing the world as a different animal.
22. Respect Physical Limitations
When attempting to mimic animal behaviors or push physical boundaries, understand and respect your body’s anatomical limitations to prevent serious injury.
23. Embrace Discomfort for Insight
When seeking deep, authentic insights into alternative ways of living, be prepared to endure significant physical discomfort, as it can be a powerful teacher.
24. Learn Through Embodied Immersion
To gain a deep understanding of a different perspective, immerse yourself physically and adapt your behaviors, learning through direct embodiment and observation, rather than just intellectual study.
25. Experience Social Hierarchies Viscerally
To fully understand the practical implications of social hierarchies, seek experiences that allow you to feel their effects physically and emotionally, rather than just intellectually.
7 Key Quotes
I think you sort of often think, you know, nowadays, we're kind of much smarter than somebody, like, living hundreds of years ago or whatever. But I now think that that is certainly not the case.
Thomas Thwaites
We've already got artificial general intelligence. We've got like, he calls like corporations, he characterizes corporations as like slow AI.
Thomas Thwaites
The whole of like, the economy is basically an alignment problem. How do we get like, the economy and, you know, capitalism to, you know, align with the sort of interests of humans as like individuals or whatever.
Thomas Thwaites
Goats have been evolving for just as long as humans. And they're just as specialised at being goats as humans are at being humans.
Thomas Thwaites
This idea of progress is, you know, it's kind of a story. It's not necessarily a true story either.
Thomas Thwaites
If you understand that you can't be harmless, well, then the next question is, like, well, who do you harm and why?
Thomas Thwaites
I'm not saying I could ever kind of, you know, become quite so specialized myself. But yeah, I guess I'm more a generalist, perhaps.
Thomas Thwaites
2 Protocols
Smelting Iron Ore (Medieval Method)
Thomas Thwaites- Find and mine iron ore (e.g., a suitcase full).
- Build a furnace (e.g., out of an old chimney pot) and use charcoal as fuel.
- Use a leaf blower as a bellows to provide air to the furnace.
- Continuously shovel iron ore and charcoal into the furnace for about 15 hours, aiming for temperatures around 1200 degrees Celsius.
- Allow the furnace to cool down after the process.
- Extract the 'bloom of iron' (a metallic, cauliflower-like mass) from the melted remains.
- Heat the bloom to cherry red and repeatedly hit it with a hammer on an anvil to bash out impurities (Note: This step requires significant skill and judgment, often leading to brittle iron for novices).
Smelting Iron Ore (Microwave Method)
Thomas Thwaites- Obtain partially smelted iron (e.g., from a failed traditional smelting attempt).
- Place a small amount of the partially smelted iron into a crucible.
- Stuff a microwave oven full of insulation, ensuring the rotating plate is removed.
- Place the crucible with iron inside the insulated microwave.
- Pump microwaves at full power for approximately 30 minutes.
- Extract small lumps of iron, about the size of a coin, that can then be reliably worked into metal components (Note: This method carries a risk of setting the microwave on fire).