Crumbling institutions, culture wars, and the dismissal economy (with Ashley Hodgson)

Jul 12, 2023 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Spencer Greenberg speaks with Ashley Hodgson about the "new enlightenment" for revitalizing institutions in epistemic, economic, and governance realms. They discuss issues like salience in truth-seeking, metric depreciation, and the "dismissal economy."

At a Glance
14 Insights
1h 3m Duration
15 Topics
8 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to the New Enlightenment

Defining and Improving Epistemics

Understanding Salience in Information Processing

Depreciation of Economic Institutions and Metrics

Addressing Multipolar Traps with Game Theory

Role of DAOs and Blockchain in Governance

Prioritizing Epistemics to Build Trust

Contempt as a Barrier to Societal Progress

Rethinking Algorithm Incentives for Better Discourse

The Dismissal Economy and Information Overload

Dealing with Imbalanced Engagement on Topics

Proposing an Adversarial Academic Model

Critiquing Current Academic Peer Review

The Social Dynamics of Scientific Fields

Call for Experimentation and Solutions

New Enlightenment

An analogy for revitalizing institutions by focusing on solutions rather than just failures, across economic, governance, and epistemic realms, similar to the original Enlightenment's impact in the 1600s and 1700s.

Epistemics

The study of how we know what is true, valid, and legitimate, particularly in the context of generating knowledge and truth within institutions like academia and journalism.

Salience

The importance or weight given to different pieces of evidence when applying knowledge to a problem. Manipulation often occurs by overemphasizing certain true facts while downplaying others, leading to a biased viewpoint despite accurate individual facts.

Goodhart's Law

The principle that when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. This occurs because people will game the metric to achieve the target rather than genuinely improve the underlying performance it was intended to measure.

Economic Institutions Depreciation

A process where the effectiveness of economic systems declines as mechanisms designed to serve the population are gamed over time, leading to a concentration of power and a shift from an ideal of 'one person, one vote' in market influence to 'one dollar, one vote'.

Multipolar Trap

A situation where individual powerful entities (like corporations) are incentivized to engage in harmful actions (e.g., creating addictive products) to remain competitive, even if a collectively beneficial alternative exists but is not profitable in the current market structure.

Dismissal Economy

An environment of information overload where people seek psychologically satisfying ways to quickly dismiss information, often by discrediting sources or arguments. This can prevent accurate perception and harm relationships by shutting down conversation.

Adversarial Academic Model

A proposed research model, inspired by legal courts, where dedicated teams argue for and against a hypothesis, with a neutral arbiter evaluating the arguments to determine which side prevails. This aims to create stronger incentives for rigorous attempts to disprove theories than current peer review.

?
What is the 'New Enlightenment'?

It's an analogy for revitalizing societal institutions by focusing on solutions in the economic, governance, and epistemic realms, rather than just their failures, drawing parallels to the original Enlightenment.

?
How can we improve our 'epistemics' regarding institutions?

Improving epistemics involves shifting focus from merely validating facts to understanding and managing 'salience,' which is how we weigh the importance of different pieces of true information when solving real-world problems.

?
What causes the depreciation of economic institutions?

This depreciation is driven by systems' inability to keep pace with problem generation, the gaming of metrics (Goodhart's Law), and powerful entities using the system to channel upward mobility pathways for their own benefit.

?
How do 'multipolar traps' affect industries like social media?

Multipolar traps occur when powerful entities are incentivized to do harmful things (e.g., create addictive products) to stay competitive, even if it's detrimental to users, because non-addictive, healthier alternatives might not be profitable.

?
Why is it rational to distrust groups that hold you in contempt?

It is rational to distrust a group that holds you in contempt, especially if they have power, because human groups can creatively harm those they dislike, and contempt can translate into actions that undermine trust or rights.

?
How can we reduce contempt and foster understanding across different groups?

By designing online spaces and algorithms that incentivize and uplift individuals who are skilled at understanding and communicating respectfully across differences, making empathy and open-mindedness more salient than conflict.

?
What is the 'dismissal economy' and how does it relate to information overload?

The dismissal economy describes how, due to information overload, people seek psychologically satisfying ways to quickly dismiss information (e.g., 'that source is biased'), which can prevent accurate perception and harm relationships by shutting down conversation.

?
What is a better way to deal with information overload than quick dismissal?

A better approach is to clearly define what is 'in your wheelhouse' and what is not, acknowledging that some information is important but you lack the time to investigate, rather than pretending to logically invalidate it.

?
How might an 'adversarial academic model' improve truth-seeking?

This model, akin to legal courts, would fund dedicated teams to argue for and against a hypothesis, with a neutral arbiter to evaluate arguments, creating stronger incentives for rigorous attempts to disprove theories than current peer review.

1. Revitalize Institutions: Focus Solutions

When encountering institutional problems like mistrust or capture, shift your focus from dwelling on the issues to actively generating and experimenting with potential solutions. This approach encourages innovative thinking and collaboration to restructure institutions.

2. Improve Epistemics: Address Salience

Recognize that information manipulation often occurs by over-emphasizing certain true facts (salience) rather than presenting false information. Strive to understand how different pieces of evidence are weighed and how to compile diverse perspectives to form an accurate view.

3. Counteract Self-Deception in Decisions

Be aware of the natural human tendency to overweigh positive effects and underweigh negative effects of your own decisions, especially when in power. Actively seek to counterbalance this psychological bias, potentially by involving diverse perspectives or critical self-reflection.

4. Redesign Online Incentives for Empathy

Advocate for or create online platforms and algorithms that reward and uplift individuals who excel at understanding and communicating across differences. This can help reduce societal contempt and foster trust by highlighting empathetic voices, making cross-cultural understanding a developed taste.

5. Manage Information Overload with Boundaries

Instead of dismissing information with seemingly logical but often biased rationalizations, explicitly tell yourself ’that’s not in my wheelhouse’ for topics you cannot genuinely investigate. Establish clear boundaries around what you will pay attention to, acknowledging other issues may be important but not your current focus.

6. Listen to Friends’ Issues

When a friend brings up a topic they care deeply about, especially if they feel personally involved or pained by it, listen to them even if it’s not ‘in your wheelhouse.’ Acknowledge their issue and pain, as dismissing it can hurt relationships, without necessarily researching everything on the topic.

7. Address Contempt, Rebuild Trust

Recognize that people rationally distrust groups or institutions they perceive as holding them in contempt, especially if those groups hold power. To rebuild trust and enable progress, it is crucial to address and mitigate the underlying contempt.

8. Rejigger Economic Investment Mechanisms

Consider new mechanisms for investment in infrastructure, especially in digital industries, that move beyond a ‘one dollar, one vote’ system. Explore models where investment decisions are influenced by broader public needs (e.g., ‘one person, one vote’ scenarios or conditional algorithms) rather than solely financial returns.

9. Utilize Adversarial Academic Models

Experiment with an adversarial academic model, similar to legal courts, where dedicated teams argue for and against a position, and a neutral party arbitrates based on agreed-upon techniques. This could improve truth-seeking, especially for imbalanced issues, by incentivizing rigorous attempts to disprove theories.

10. Be Skeptical of Gamed Metrics

Be aware that metrics used to measure success or performance in systems (e.g., college admissions, corporate performance) can depreciate over time as people learn to game them. Recognize that this gaming can lead to a misallocation of power and opportunity within institutions.

11. Recognize Multipolar Traps in Markets

Understand that powerful entities in markets can face ‘multipolar traps’ or ‘multiplayer prisoners dilemmas,’ where there’s an incentive to do harmful things (e.g., creating addictive social media) to stay competitive. Creative game theory algorithms and institutional redesigns are needed to solve these systemic issues.

12. Be Wary of Algorithms

Be aware that online algorithms may be designed to maximize profit by making users more anxious and manipulable, as insecurity can increase responsiveness to ads. This can make users more reactive to negative content and less open to nuanced discussions, so exercise caution in your online engagement.

13. Exercise Caution with New Technologies

Approach new technologies like DAOs with a blend of hope and skepticism, recognizing that while they offer promise for new governance models, they are in early stages. Be aware of potential pitfalls like projects not finishing, hype machines, or security vulnerabilities, and understand that a robust social and value-based community layer is often needed for success.

14. Seek Balanced Information on Topics

When researching topics where one side is highly engaged with many arguments and the other is less developed, actively seek out or encourage the development of stronger counter-arguments. This helps in accurately assessing the issue rather than being swayed by the sheer volume of information from one perspective.

When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Spencer Greenberg

If you don't solve the contempt problem, I don't think you can actually solve the rest of it.

Ashley Hodgson

I think it's rational to distrust someone who holds you in contempt or a group that holds you in contempt, especially if they have power.

Ashley Hodgson

I think the algorithms could be designed to develop that taste as well. It's just that's not profitable.

Ashley Hodgson

I think we're going to need a lot of people generating a lot of goofy ideas before we get some that stick.

Ashley Hodgson
1600s, a little bit 1700s
Period of the old Enlightenment When the scientific revolution and new principles of human rights and rationality emerged.
top 1%
Share of top higher education institutions' population from highest income bracket Indicative of people in power using the system to channel upward mobility.
80%
Hypothetical population approval threshold for infrastructure investment In a 'one person, one vote' scenario for investment decisions.
50%
Hypothetical population disapproval threshold for infrastructure investment In a 'one person, one vote' scenario, if this percentage says no, investment doesn't proceed.
10%
Hypothetical richest population share influencing investment Scenario where this group says yes, but overall population says no, leading to no investment.
3
Hypothetical number of pro-Bitcoin researchers to be funded As part of an adversarial academic model for a Bitcoin institute.
3
Hypothetical number of anti-Bitcoin researchers to be funded As part of an adversarial academic model for a Bitcoin institute, matching the pro-Bitcoin side.