Escaping a cult: physically, mentally, and emotionally (with Daniella Mestyanek Young)
Spencer Greenberg speaks with Daniela Mestinek-Young about her experience growing up in the religious cult, the Children of God, and the striking parallels she found with the U.S. military, particularly regarding coercive control and the pervasive issue of sexual violence against women.
Deep Dive Analysis
18 Topic Outline
Introduction to Daniella's Cult Background
Experiences of Children Born into Cults vs. Adult Converts
Belief System and Sexual Practices of Children of God
Justification of Extreme Doctrines by the Cult Leader
Specific Abuses and Control Tactics within the Cult
The Role of Hunger and Busyness in Maintaining Cult Control
Internal Conflict: Wanting to Leave but Fearing the Outside
The Story of Davidito (Ricky Rodriguez) and its Aftermath
Daniella's Turning Point and Escape from the Cult
Challenges of Integrating into the Outside World
Joining the U.S. Military and Cult Parallels
Rape Culture and Sexual Violence in the U.S. Military
The Combat Ban for Women and its Repeal
Prevalence of Sexual Assault and Systemic Issues in the Military
Addressing Toxic Masculinity and Military Culture Reform
Defining a Cult and the 'Cultiness Spectrum'
Identifying Cult-like Elements in Everyday Groups
Practical Tips for Spotting Potentially Toxic Groups
5 Key Concepts
Bounded Choice
A concept described by Dr. Janja Lalic, where individuals within a coercive control system, such as a cult, do not have true free choice but rather 'bounded choice' due to the overwhelming influence and strength of the system.
Sacred Assumption
The foundational belief that a cult leader is a prophet of God, which then serves to justify any of their directives or teachings, regardless of how extreme or contradictory they may seem to external norms.
Total Institution
A sociological term for organizations where people live and work separately from the rest of the world under a formal, overarching structure. In such institutions, individuals are often required to suppress their individuality for the collective purpose of the group.
Thought-Stopping Cliché
Phrases or ideas intentionally used to shut down critical thinking or dissent, preventing individuals from questioning the group's beliefs or practices. Examples include 'trust the prophet' or 'boys will be boys'.
Cultiness Spectrum
The idea that 'cult' is not a binary label but rather a continuum, where groups can exhibit varying degrees of cult-like behaviors and attributes without necessarily meeting every criterion of a traditional cult definition.
7 Questions Answered
Children born into cults don't 'buy in' to programming in the same way adults do; the cult's beliefs are simply all they've ever known, fundamentally impacting their identity from a young age rather than requiring a conscious choice to believe.
The cult's justification, referred to as the 'sacred assumption,' was that their founder, David Berg, was a prophet of God, meaning whatever he said—including that Jesus's love is shown through sex—was accepted as divine truth without question.
These tactics, along with isolation and control over reproduction, are means of coercive control that prevent members from realizing they are controlled, instead making them believe any hardship is due to their own lack of effort or devotion.
The combat ban was a policy, implemented in 1993, that prevented women from holding any position that would put them on the front lines, leading to inadequate combat training and limited career advancement opportunities for women.
Official numbers state one in three women and one in six men experience sexual assault, though the actual numbers are suspected to be higher, with many women reporting that they were warned it was a matter of 'when, not if' they would be assaulted.
Look for groups that demand excessive labor without tangible, in-this-lifetime returns, and those that control or suppress information, as these are common tactics in cults and coercive control systems.
The unforgivable sin in such groups is leaving, as any choice that prioritizes the individual over the group's mission is typically denigrated or leads to shunning from the community.
18 Actionable Insights
1. Evaluate Group Labor & Return
When joining any organization, critically assess how much labor you are contributing and what tangible benefits you are receiving in return in this lifetime, as cults often exploit labor for power.
2. Beware Information Control
Be highly suspicious of any group that attempts to control or restrict the information its members can access, as this is a primary tactic used by toxic or coercive groups to maintain control.
3. Question “Not A Cult” Explanations
If a group offers a pre-prepared, practiced explanation for why it is not a cult, consider this a significant red flag, indicating an attempt to preemptively shut down critical thinking.
4. Recognize Coercive Control Tactics
Understand that groups maintain control through tactics like isolation, keeping members busy, poor, hungry, and controlling reproduction, which prevents self-reflection and departure.
5. Identify Thought-Stopping Cliches
Learn to recognize and challenge “thought-stopping cliches” (e.g., “trust the prophet,” “boys will be boys,” “you knew what you signed up for”) used to prevent critical thinking and suppress complaints within groups.
6. Understand Sacred Assumption
Be aware that once an individual accepts a leader as a prophet or a core idea as sacred, they may justify any actions or beliefs of that leader or group, leading to “bounded choice” rather than free will.
7. Abuse Is Not Love
Internalize that no amount of abuse can ever be defined as love; being taught otherwise fundamentally warps one’s understanding of healthy relationships and self-worth.
8. Beware Demonizing Idleness
In high-control or separatist communities, be cautious of any rhetoric that demonizes idleness or self-care, as this often serves to keep members constantly busy and prevent critical reflection.
9. Seek External Support
If you are in a toxic or high-control situation, actively seek and accept help from trusted individuals who recognize your struggle, as external support is often crucial for escape and recovery.
10. Healing Takes Time
Understand that recovering from deep-seated trauma, especially from high-control groups, is a long and arduous process that requires significant time and self-compassion, often more than initially expected.
11. Strategic Rebellion for Escape
If trapped in a high-control group, consider strategically committing an “excommunicable offense” or “worst sin” to provoke expulsion, which can be a calculated means to gain freedom.
12. Prepare for Shunning
Be aware that high-demand groups often engage in shunning or denigrating members who choose to leave, viewing departure as a betrayal of their mission, which can be a difficult aspect of exiting.
13. Challenge Toxic Masculinity
Actively challenge and dismantle cultures of extreme masculinity and “boys clubs” within institutions, as these environments can foster dehumanization and contribute to sexual violence against women.
14. Advocate for Accountability in Assault
Support and advocate for systemic changes that ensure leadership is held financially and legally responsible for sexual assault within institutions, as this can drive significant cultural reform.
15. Support Independent Prosecution
Advocate for policies that remove the prosecution of major crimes, such as sexual assault, from unit command, as this separation of power can lead to greater justice and accountability.
16. Learn from Culture Change
Study examples of successful culture change within large institutions (e.g., the military’s shift on DUI culture) to understand how deeply ingrained problems can be addressed by making behaviors unexplainable and unforgivable.
17. Challenge Self, Avoid Self-Punishment
While past trauma can build resilience, be mindful not to continuously push yourself to perfection or endure unnecessary suffering, as this can be a subtle form of self-punishment.
18. Recognize Cultiness Spectrum
Understand that “cultiness” is a continuum, and many groups can exhibit elements of coercive control without being traditional cults, allowing for a more nuanced assessment of group dynamics.
5 Key Quotes
Purity culture and pedophilia culture are pretty much two sides of the same coin. It's the obsession with the sexuality of children.
Daniella Mestyanek Young
It's that once you fully come into the system and, you know, you really are a true believer, you don't have free choice. You have bounded choice because these systems of coercive control are so strong.
Daniella Mestyanek Young
The first rule of cults is you're in a cult. And then I say that all of my leaving experiences and also watching the Harry Meghan saga taught me that the second rule of cults is we will forgive any sin, Prince Andrew, except the sin of leaving.
Daniella Mestyanek Young
Anytime we talk about addressing the issue, we're just told you have to keep yourself safe.
Daniella Mestyanek Young
If your first response is a very practiced explanation of why you are not a cult, all of my spidey senses have just gone off.
Daniella Mestyanek Young
2 Protocols
Cult Control Tactics
Daniella Mestyanek Young- Keep you isolated.
- Keep you busy.
- Keep you skinny.
- Keep you poor.
- Keep you hungry.
- Keep you pregnant, breeding, or sometimes forcibly not breeding.
Identifying Potentially Toxic/Culty Groups
Daniella Mestyanek Young- Always ask: How much labor are you giving an organization, and what are you getting in return? The return must be in this lifetime.
- Be wary of any group that tries to control or suppress information, as information is never bad.
- Be suspicious if a group's first response to being asked if they are a cult is a very practiced explanation of why they are not.