How many minds do you have? (with Kaj Sotala)
Spencer Greenberg speaks with Georgia Shreve, a multi-passionate artist, about positive psychology, multidisciplinary creativity, and education. They discuss actionable insights for fostering creativity, improving relationships, and the importance of lifelong learning and challenging ageism.
Deep Dive Analysis
18 Topic Outline
Blending Creative Areas: Visual, Musical, and Verbal Arts
The Creative Process: Words as Musical Inspiration
Introduction to Positive Psychology and Martin Seligman
Defining Positive Psychology: The PERMA Model
Positive Creativity and the Value of Generous Acts
The Role of Technical Mastery in Musical Creativity
Cultivating Creativity: Practical Tips and Environment Design
The Creator's Experience: Feedback, Enjoyment, and Discrimination
The Impact of Beauty and Sensory Experiences
Understanding Diverse Sources of Pleasure and Disgust Thresholds
The Polymath Mindset and Driving Motivations
Music's Transcendent Power and Social Good
Addressing Ageism in Society and the Workplace
Reflections on the Me Too Movement and Shifting Incentives
Building Stronger Relationships: Lessons from Positive Psychology
The Value and Purpose of Lifelong Education
Societal Progress: The Long View vs. Short-Term Challenges
Distinguishing Facts, Knowledge, and Wisdom
6 Key Concepts
PERMA Model
Martin Seligman's definition of positive psychology, encompassing Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Accomplishment. It suggests that a fulfilling life is built upon these five elements, and a deficit in any can negatively impact well-being.
Positive Creativity
An approach to creativity that focuses on the joy of creating and the potential to help others, rather than the struggle or 'dredging up' of ideas. It emphasizes a positive mindset and the inherent satisfaction derived from the creative process.
Disgust Threshold
An individual's sensitivity to things that evoke a feeling of revulsion or strong aversion. People can have vastly different thresholds, with some experiencing physical reactions like nausea from certain sensory inputs, such as specific colors or words.
Polymath
An individual with extensive knowledge and expertise across multiple diverse fields. This term describes someone who is 'multi-passioned' and actively works in different creative or intellectual domains, often finding connections between them.
Knowledge
More expansive than mere facts, knowledge involves gaining understanding and learning from facts in a way that provides guidance. It's about processing information to make it meaningful and applicable.
Wisdom
The highest level of understanding, going beyond facts and knowledge. Wisdom is the application of experience and all aspects of learning to improve one's behavior, interactions with others, and overall management of existence in the world.
6 Questions Answered
Positive psychology, as defined by Martin Seligman, focuses on PERMA: Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Accomplishment. It aims to help people move from a neutral state to flourishing, rather than just from a negative state to neutral.
Creativity in music typically requires a high degree of technical mastery and time investment in an instrument, making it hard to be creative without significant practice. In contrast, writing and visual art can be built up more slowly from a young age without initial technical mastery.
Studies suggest the most valuable visual experience is coming up a hill and looking down on water. This is thought to be wired into human psychology due to the ancient relief and joy associated with finding a vital resource like water after a journey.
According to John Gottman, the four factors are criticism (attacking a person's character), defensiveness (perceiving an attack and attacking back), contempt (putting oneself on a higher moral ground), and stonewalling (withdrawing from conversation or becoming non-responsive).
In past generations, women were often blamed for such incidents, leading to a terrible stigma and a lack of support. Reporting assaults would typically make the woman's life worse, with no benefit and significant personal cost, especially when the perpetrator was a powerful man.
Being in an educational environment provides a supportive community of learners and good teachers, and it forces individuals to engage with diverse types of work they might not pursue independently. While learning might be faster when young, commitment can make learning possible at any age.
23 Actionable Insights
1. Embrace PERMA for Flourishing
Apply Martin Seligman’s PERMA model (Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, Accomplishment) to move from a neutral state to flourishing in life, as a lack in these areas negatively impacts well-being beyond just money.
2. Cultivate a Positive Creative Mindset
Approach creative work with joy and focus on how much you can accomplish to help others, rather than dredging for ideas or cursing yourself because they’re not coming.
3. Lead by Example Through Role Modeling
Embody the qualities you want to impress upon your team or children, as this is an incredibly important and valuable way to lead, making desired behaviors “catchy” and effective.
4. Avoid Relationship Pitfalls
Actively avoid criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling in relationships, as these four behaviors are strong predictors of relationship failure according to John Gottman’s research.
5. Treat Creativity as Trainable Skill
Believe that creativity can be learned and trained like a skill or muscle, rather than viewing it as a magical inspiration, and practice it to continuously improve.
6. Implement Short, Relaxing Breaks
Take two 5-7 minute breaks daily, doing something you love like meditating, taking a walk, or buying flowers, to get away from work and let your mind relax without thinking about tasks.
7. Deeply Immerse in Creative Field
To foster creativity, immerse yourself deeply in the chosen field by reading an immense amount, finding great teachers, and identifying wonderful mentors.
8. Simplify Creative Environment
Organize creative projects (e.g., in Ziploc bags) to easily see all your work, and keep your physical workspace completely clear and free of distractions to improve focus and idea flow.
9. Prioritize Musical Technical Mastery
For serious involvement in music, especially classical, dedicate immense time to study, lessons, and daily practice to achieve technical mastery, as it’s a prerequisite for deep creativity in this art form.
10. Leverage Verbal Inspiration for Music
If working in music, allow words to be a strong source of inspiration, as they can practically generate the music and provide propulsion for composition.
11. Turn Negative Feedback into Motivation
When faced with discouraging feedback from teachers or mentors, use it as a challenge to propel yourself to do better and achieve your goals.
12. Integrate Multiple Creative Forms
Combine different creative media (e.g., words, music, visuals) in your work, as this multidisciplinary approach can lead to powerful and beautiful artistic results.
13. Perform Small, Generous Acts
Engage in everyday acts of generosity, such as smiling at someone, being kind to store helpers, or using your connections to help a friend, as these can bring joy and inspire others.
14. Advocate for Others More Boldly
Recognize that you might be braver on behalf of others than for yourself; use this capacity to advocate for friends or causes, as it can feel more genuine and lead to positive outcomes.
15. Value Positive Feedback for Creativity
Seek and cherish positive comments and encouragement for your creative work, especially early on, as it can provide significant motivation and validation.
16. Choose Neutral Music for Breaks
During breaks, listen to neutral music, such as a cappella chants with noise-canceling headphones, to avoid analytical engagement and allow for pure relaxation.
17. Ground Optimism in Experience
Be optimistic when you have a basis for it, such as past successes in a particular endeavor, as this grounded optimism can be a positive and propelling force, but avoid inappropriate optimism that could lead to disappointment.
18. Critique Behavior, Not Character
In relationships, when addressing issues, focus criticism on specific behaviors or actions rather than attacking the person’s character, to foster constructive communication.
19. Engage in Difficult Conversations
Do not withdraw or stonewall during difficult conversations in relationships; instead, engage constructively to address upsetting topics and work towards resolution.
20. Cultivate Aesthetic Appreciation
Develop a deep responsiveness to visual beauty and aesthetics, as appreciating colors, art, and natural views can bring profound joy and intellectual interest.
21. Commit to Lifelong Learning
Embrace learning as a continuous passion, recognizing that educational environments offer structure, peer interaction, and expert guidance that can enhance self-teaching.
22. Challenge Ageist Assumptions
Be aware of and actively challenge ageism, particularly the notion that older people cannot learn new technologies or skills, as commitment to learning makes it possible at any age.
23. Seek Wisdom Beyond Facts
Strive for wisdom, which goes beyond mere facts and knowledge, by using experience and all learning to improve your behavior, treat people better, and manage your existence in the world.
6 Key Quotes
I think it's really interesting how sometimes we can be braver on other people's behalf than our own.
Spencer Greenberg
I believe that practicing, it does make you better. I do believe, and I'm not a brain scientist, but I do believe some people are born with slightly different brains that are conducive to creativity.
Georgia Shreve
I have never had the feeling when I went to a concert that I was judging the concert. I know a lot of people go there and say, oh, she missed the high A or whatever it is. I don't look at it that way at all. As a matter of fact, I once went to a piano concert of a friend and a woman came out saying he made three mistakes. And I knew he hadn't made those mistakes, but she was looking at it in the negative. She wanted to give the impression that she knew what she was talking about. I don't do that at all. I just listen for pure joy and meaning.
Georgia Shreve
I think music is more transcendent than the other arts.
Georgia Shreve
I think that people who say things like that just totally misunderstand the incentives. They don't realize that by bringing these things up, it would just make the women's lives worse. And there was no benefit and lots of cost to doing so.
Spencer Greenberg
I just am a learnaholic. I just have to know and learn things. I adore learning things.
Georgia Shreve
2 Protocols
Enhancing Creativity
Georgia Shreve- Break up your day with two 5-7 minute breaks.
- During breaks, do something you love, like meditating or taking a walk, without thinking about your work.
- Listen to neutral music with noise-canceling headphones to relax your mind.
- Immerse yourself deeply in your creative field (e.g., read extensively if writing).
- Seek out great teachers and identify wonderful mentors.
Simplifying the Creative Environment
Georgia Shreve (inspired by Molly Peacock)- Organize creative projects by putting each one (e.g., a poem) into a separate container like a Ziploc baggie, allowing you to see all your work.
- Keep your workspace decluttered, with nothing on the desk to avoid distraction.
- Consider painting your desk, walls, and rug the same neutral color to create a seamless, distraction-free flow.
- Hide all non-essential items (like pencils) under the desk.