How to unleash student potential in education (with Jack Despain Zhou)

Apr 23, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Spencer Greenberg speaks with Jack Despain Zhou, cofounder of the Center for Educational Progress, about the stagnation in U.S. education. They discuss reforming schools by grouping students by ability, incorporating cognitive science, and prioritizing excellence, along with the FAA's problematic hiring changes.

At a Glance
18 Insights
1h 18m Duration
19 Topics
7 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Current State of U.S. Education: Stagnation

Special Education Funding and Its Impact

Advocating for Ability Grouping Over Age Grouping

Evidence Supporting Ability Grouping and Tracking

Cognitive Science of Learning Principles Not Used in Schools

Failures and Ideological Biases in Education Schools

Understanding the 'Grammar of Schooling' and Classroom Realities

Logistical Implementation of Ability Grouping

Opposition to Standardized Testing and Its Connection to Equity

Defining the Goals of Education: Excellence vs. Equalization

Mistakes and Consequences of the No Child Left Behind Act

Rethinking Incentives for Schools: Diagnostics vs. Rewards/Punishments

Student Progress: The Role of Interest Over Intelligence

The Problem of Classroom Management and Maintaining Order

Strategies for Implementing Education Reforms

The FAA Air Traffic Controller Hiring Scandal

Reasons Behind the FAA's Controversial Hiring Changes

Impact of the FAA Scandal on Safety and Workforce

Achieving Diversity Goals Without Lowering Standards

Ability Grouping

Ability grouping involves separating students into different classes or tracks based on their current skill level or knowledge, rather than their age. Research suggests this approach can significantly benefit high-achieving students by allowing them to accelerate through the curriculum, and when combined with effective curricula like direct instruction, can benefit students at all levels.

Spaced Repetition

Spaced repetition is a learning technique where material is reviewed at increasing intervals over time. This method maps review sessions to the forgetting curve, meaning content is revisited just as one is about to forget it, which is more effective for long-term memory than reviewing at fixed intervals.

Interleaving

Interleaving is a study technique that involves mixing different topics or types of problems during a single study session, rather than focusing on one topic at a time (blocked practice). While blocked practice may feel more intuitive and productive in the short term, interleaved practice consistently leads to better long-term retention and learning.

Grammar of Schooling

The 'grammar of schooling' refers to the deeply ingrained, consistent structural elements of education that have remained resistant to change across many places and times. Examples include primarily age-based student grouping and fixed class durations (e.g., 50-60 minute blocks).

No Child Left Behind (NCLB)

NCLB was a bipartisan education policy that aimed to bring all students up to a 'proficient' level within 12 years, using standardized test scores as a measure. It is criticized for its punitive, one-size-fits-all approach, which often led to schools and students in difficult situations being labeled as failures, rather than receiving tailored support.

Value-Added Metrics

Value-added metrics attempt to measure the effectiveness of schools or teachers by assessing student progress relative to their starting test scores. While intended to provide incentives for improvement, tying rewards or punishments to these metrics can create perverse incentives, leading to distortions like making tests easier to boost scores.

Disparate Impact

Disparate impact occurs when a policy or practice, though seemingly neutral, has a disproportionately negative effect on a protected group. In the context of the FAA hiring scandal, an aptitude test was found to have disparate impact, leading to an overhaul of the hiring process that ultimately degraded performance and created new problems.

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How bad is the state of U.S. education today?

U.S. education is largely stagnant, fighting the same battles and making the same mistakes for decades, rather than being in a state of continuous decline. While there are areas of decline, such as recent drops in math and reading scores, the overall issue is a lack of significant progress and improvement.

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What is the main reason for stagnation in U.S. education?

The primary cause of stagnation is the persistent effort to provide a universal curriculum for everyone, rather than tailoring education to individual student abilities. This approach often overlooks highly talented students and struggles to effectively support those who are behind, keeping everyone on a single, undifferentiated path.

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What is the most crucial reform needed in the U.S. education system?

The biggest reform needed is to shift from age-based grouping to ability grouping, where students are taught at their specific skill level. This allows students to progress as far and as fast as they are capable and interested, rather than being constrained by an age-defined curriculum.

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What evidence supports the effectiveness of ability grouping in education?

Meta-analyses of education research, particularly those that include gifted programs and serious curricular changes, consistently show that ability grouping has large positive impacts on the learning of high-achieving students. Programs like direct instruction, which incorporate ability grouping, have shown effectiveness at all learning levels.

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What are some cognitive science learning principles that are not widely incorporated in schools?

Principles like spaced repetition (reviewing material at increasing intervals) and interleaving (mixing different topics during study) are well-understood to be effective but are often not incorporated. This is partly because these methods can feel less intuitive or more difficult for both students and teachers than less effective approaches.

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Why do education schools and teachers often fail to adopt evidence-based learning practices?

Education schools are often criticized for being more vocational than research-focused, prone to fads, and ideologically driven, rather than prioritizing the science of learning. Teachers may also be focused on credentialing for pay raises, and the system is slow to evolve, allowing intuitively appealing but unproven ideas (like learning styles) to persist.

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What is the 'grammar of schooling' and how does it affect classrooms today?

The 'grammar of schooling' refers to fundamental, resistant-to-change structural elements like age-based grouping and fixed class durations (e.g., 50-60 minute blocks). While specific curricula or fads (like project-based learning) may come and go, these underlying structures remain largely consistent across classrooms.

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How can ability grouping be logistically implemented in schools?

Ability grouping can be implemented through various methods, such as offering different math classes (e.g., pre-algebra, algebra, geometry) that students sign up for based on readiness, or through more flexible elementary school models like direct instruction, which regularly tests students and moves them between different classrooms for multi-week chunks.

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Why is there pushback against standardized testing?

Pushback against standardized testing often stems from an discomfort with the achievement gaps they reveal, leading to a tendency to 'smash the thermometer' rather than address the underlying issues. Critics also worry that tests are imperfect proxies and incentivize teaching to the test rather than deeper learning.

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What was fundamentally wrong with the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act?

NCLB's fundamental flaw was treating the goal of education as getting all students to the same arbitrary 'proficient' level, regardless of their starting point or circumstances. This created a punitive system that labeled schools, teachers, and students in difficult situations as failures, rather than providing appropriate, tailored support.

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How should schools be incentivized to improve education?

Instead of using test scores for rewards or punishments, they should be treated as diagnostic tools to understand student needs and tailor curriculum. While value-added metrics (measuring student change over time) have been tried, they can create perverse incentives, suggesting that direct assessment for improvement is better than high-stakes systems.

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Is individual student progress more constrained by interest or intelligence?

While intelligence is real and matters, expertise research suggests that progress is more constrained by interest than by intelligence. Almost any individual can progress in any given domain if they are serious, focused, and receive effective training, making the question less about 'can they do it?' and more about 'how difficult will it be and are they willing to put in the work?'

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How significant is classroom management as a problem in education?

Classroom management is a very real and significant problem, particularly in more difficult neighborhoods, as an environment conducive to learning requires order and focus. Addressing issues like phone use in classrooms and removing extremely disruptive students are high priorities and prerequisites for serious in-classroom learning.

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What was the FAA hiring scandal about?

In 2014, the FAA completely overhauled its air traffic controller hiring process, voiding previous aptitude test scores and CTI school degrees. They introduced a biographical questionnaire with seemingly random 'correct' answers (e.g., lowest high school grade was science) that knocked out over 90% of applicants, severely disrupting the hiring pipeline.

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Why did the FAA make such a drastic change to its hiring process?

The change was driven by political pressure to address the 'disparate impact' of the previous aptitude test, which, while highly effective, showed significant racial disparities. Despite lacking substantive backing that the new process would maintain or improve performance, the FAA elected to overhaul hiring to reduce disparate impact.

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Did the FAA hiring scandal increase risks associated with flying?

While it didn't mean wildly unqualified controllers were guiding planes, the scandal exacerbated a shortage of air traffic controllers by significantly weakening the hiring pipeline. This resulted in busier, more stressed, and overworked controllers, leading to a general degradation of performance and an increase in overall risk.

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How could the FAA have better achieved its goals of increasing representation without compromising standards?

Instead of lowering standards or implementing a nonsensical biographical questionnaire, the FAA could have focused on meaningful outreach and providing extra training to underprivileged communities. Advocates for diversity in aviation emphasize encouraging more people to apply and preparing them to meet high standards, rather than neglecting safety or skill requirements.

1. Group Students by Ability

Instead of grouping students by age, group them by their specific skill level to tailor instruction and allow them to progress as far and fast as they are capable and interested. This approach is supported by research showing positive impacts on learning, especially for high-achieving students, and potentially for all levels when combined with effective curricula like direct instruction.

2. Prioritize Pursuit of Excellence

Reorient education to prioritize the pursuit of excellence and understanding the mechanical steps required to reach the peak of any subject. This approach aims to lift all students as close to their potential peaks as they are capable and interested in going.

3. Incorporate Cognitive Science

Take the cognitive science of learning more seriously in education. By incorporating its principles, such as spaced repetition and interleaved practice, alongside ability grouping, improvements in learning can be reasonably expected at every student level.

4. Meet Students at Their Level

Regardless of the underlying reasons for a student’s current skill level (e.g., mental health, home environment, IQ), provide instruction tailored to their specific needs and current readiness. This approach aims to accelerate learning by addressing foundational gaps before moving to advanced topics.

5. Use Tests Diagnostically

View standardized test scores as diagnostic tools to understand where students are currently performing, rather than as punitive measures for schools or students. This shift helps tailor curriculum to student needs instead of merely judging success or failure.

6. Prioritize Interest Over Intelligence

When assessing student potential, focus on their interest and willingness to put in the work, rather than primarily on intelligence. While intelligence matters, progress is more often constrained by interest, and with effective training and support, almost any individual can progress in a given domain.

7. Ensure Classroom Order

Prioritize creating and maintaining an ordered classroom environment conducive to learning, which includes measures like removing phones from classrooms and addressing extremely disruptive students. This order is a prerequisite for any serious in-classroom learning.

8. Utilize Spaced Repetition

Review material using spaced repetition, reviewing within a day, then a few days, then a couple of weeks, and so on, spacing out practice sessions further each time. This method maps to the forgetting curve, making memory more effective than evenly chunked review.

9. Employ Interleaved Practice

Mix different topics together during study sessions (interleaved practice) rather than focusing on one topic at a time (blocked practice). Interleaved practice consistently leads to better long-term retention and deeper learning.

10. Disregard Learning Styles Theory

Do not rely on the concept of “learning styles” (visual, auditory, kinesthetic) as an effective teaching method, as there is no evidence to support its efficacy. This is an intuitively appealing but unsupported idea that has persisted in education.

11. Offer Diverse Math Tracks

Implement different mathematics tracks (e.g., pre-algebra, algebra, geometry) where students sign up for classes based on their readiness and prior achievement, rather than strictly by age. This is a basic form of ability grouping that can be applied.

12. Use Flexible Elementary Grouping

For elementary levels, implement flexible ability grouping by regularly testing students and assigning them to different classrooms or groups for multi-week chunks based on their test results. This allows for dynamic adjustments to student placement throughout the year.

13. Expand Gifted Programs

Protect and expand existing gifted programs and accelerated tracks, making them more robust and available to students. These programs should offer comprehensive curricula that truly push students beyond the default, rather than just being occasional pull-out sessions.

14. Eliminate Age-Based Grouping

In an ideal system, eliminate age as the primary factor for student grouping in academic subjects, instead allowing students of any age to take classes based on their readiness and test-based admission criteria. This pushes students further in subjects when they are ready, though some social grouping might remain.

15. Implement Real-Time Feedback

Incorporate techniques like students using red/green cards to provide real-time answers to questions during teaching sessions. This evidence-based method is a positive movement that can enhance engagement and understanding.

16. Build Around System Edges

If seeking to implement educational reforms, consider working around the edges of the existing system by building micro-schools or specialized programs. This approach can be surprisingly easy and effective for creating meaningful change without directly confronting the larger, slower-moving system.

17. Advocate for Selective Public Schools

Advocate for the creation of more selective public schools, similar to Stuyvesant or Thomas Jefferson, in states and districts that currently lack them. These institutions can serve as “crown schools” that bring prestige and provide advanced curricula for high-achieving students.

18. Maintain Hiring Standards

When trying to increase diversity or representation in hiring, focus on meaningful outreach and encouragement rather than lowering qualification standards or neglecting safety. Lowering standards can degrade performance and create downstream problems, as seen in the FAA scandal.

It's not that things are terrible, per se. It's just that things could be a lot better, and they're not really going anywhere.

Jack Despain Zhou

what you like doesn't work and what works you won't like.

Jack Despain Zhou

there's a tendency when you see uncomfortable reality to try to smash the thermometer rather than changing the weather

Jack Despain Zhou

My impression of the education system was that it very much was focused on shuffling people down the same universal track. And as soon as it felt like it didn't need to give them attention or push them, it just stopped.

Jack Despain Zhou

The correct response is to drill in and to say, this is the level that you're at, this is the instruction that you need, and to provide them instruction tailored to that until they're ready to move on.

Jack Despain Zhou

progress is constrained by interests over intelligence.

Jack Despain Zhou

Direct Instruction Ability Grouping (Elementary School Level)

Jack Despain Zhou
  1. Test students regularly to assess their current skill level.
  2. Place students into different classrooms or groups based on their test results for multi-week instructional chunks.
  3. Re-test students at the end of each chunk to determine if they are ready to move up to a higher group or if they need to continue at their current level.

Spaced Repetition for Effective Learning

Jack Despain Zhou
  1. Review new material within a day of initial learning.
  2. Review the material again within a few days.
  3. Review the material again within a couple of weeks.
  4. Continue reviewing at increasingly spaced intervals (e.g., a few more weeks, then months) to align with the forgetting curve.

FAA Air Traffic Controller Hiring Process (Pre-2014)

Jack Despain Zhou
  1. Students, primarily from Collegiate Training Initiative (CTI) schools, along with other interested individuals, take an aptitude test called the ATSAT.
  2. Based on their scores on the ATSAT and meeting other requirements, eligible candidates are admitted to become air traffic controllers.
25%
Approximate percentage of a school district's budget allocated to special education Includes large chunks of state and federal funding as well.
more than 90%
Percentage of applicants knocked out by the FAA's biographical questionnaire In the years it was used for air traffic controller hiring.
90-95%
Percentage of air traffic controller test takers who would pass the minimum score after the 2014 FAA changes Meaning only the bottom 5-10% were knocked out by the aptitude test, making it much easier to qualify.
87%
Percentage of air traffic controllers hired from the 'well-qualified' band (pre-2014) This band included approximately 60% of test takers.