Learning and Governance (with Emerson Spartz)
Spencer Greenberg, Cassandra Shia (liberal), and Hank Reiser (conservative) explore the roots of political disagreement, focusing on values, climate change, and political correctness, demonstrating how respectful dialogue can bridge divides.
Deep Dive Analysis
12 Topic Outline
Introduction to the Cooperative Disagreement Experiment
Divergent Political Values: Stability vs. Acceleration
The Role and Wisdom of Tradition in Society
Trust in Science and Media Reporting
Climate Change: Likelihood of Catastrophe and Cost of Intervention
Climate Solutions: Nuclear Power and Carbon Pricing
Challenges of Renewable Energy and Energy Poverty
Carbon Capture and Resource Depletion Concerns
Political Correctness, Free Speech, and Gatekeepers
The Dangers of Dehumanization and Extreme Labeling
The State of US Political Affiliation and Polarization
Personal Philosophies on Truth, Models, and Free Thinking
6 Key Concepts
Stability vs. Acceleration
This dichotomy describes the fundamental difference in values between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives tend to prioritize stability, caution, and preserving established norms, while liberals tend to prioritize acceleration, actively seeking to improve society and make things better, even if it means rapid change.
Tradition's Dual Nature
Tradition can encapsulate deep wisdom, representing tested procedures that have allowed cultures to survive and endure. However, tradition can also enshrine structures of oppression, benefiting one group over another and propagating existing power imbalances, which may lack intrinsic value.
Risk Management (Conservative View)
From a conservative perspective, addressing future challenges like climate change is primarily a matter of risk management. This involves preparing the world for a variety of crises by fostering prosperity, strong infrastructure, and mobile economies, rather than making large, potentially costly 'big bets' on prevention that could deplete resources and leave society unprepared for other unforeseen threats.
Earth Overshoot Day
This concept marks the day of the year when humanity has consumed all the ecological resources and services that Earth can regenerate in that year. Beyond this date, humanity is drawing down from Earth's natural capital, indicating an unsustainable rate of resource consumption.
Baseload Power vs. Variable Power
Baseload power refers to a reliable, continuous supply of electricity that can be generated consistently, like from nuclear or traditional fossil fuel plants. Variable power, such as from solar and wind, is intermittent and depends on natural conditions, requiring backup (often fast spin-up gas-fired plants) to ensure continuous energy supply, which can sometimes lead to a net carbon failure.
Dehumanization (Political Context)
This refers to the dangerous practice of lumping together diverse groups of people with different views and labeling them as 'evil' or 'bad.' This lack of nuance can lead to a loss of empathy and understanding, historically preceding periods where one human group inflicts severe harm upon another.
7 Questions Answered
A core conservative value is emphasizing stability and caution, being wary of changing established norms quickly, and valuing tradition as a source of wisdom that has allowed cultures to endure.
Conservatives tend to be distrustful of popular science reporting, believing it can be biased, alarmist, and driven by agendas, especially when it touches on policy. Liberals tend to believe in the conclusions of science and are more likely to value not destroying the natural environment.
While acknowledging human influence on climate, conservatives often view it as a serious but not alarming or existential threat. They are skeptical of catastrophic positive feedback loops and believe that proposed 'kitchen sink' solutions are too costly, risking current prosperity and future adaptability, preferring adaptation over aggressive prevention.
Nuclear power is seen as a low-risk, clear-benefit strategy because it is a known technology, provides reliable baseload power, and can significantly reduce first-world carbon emissions. Its barriers are primarily regulatory and legal, rather than technical or safety-related.
Many environmental policies, particularly those promoting expensive alternative energy or opposing hydroelectric projects, are seen as hindering the economic development of energy-poor populations in the developing world. This can perpetuate poverty and limit their ability to adapt to future crises, including climate change.
The main concern is the suppression of ideas deemed objectionable, which can lead to a 'gatekeeper consensus' where self-appointed fact-checkers or institutions decide what information is legitimate. This is seen as a dangerous precedent that could stifle scientific diversity of thought and open discourse, ultimately harming institutions like universities.
According to a May 2020 Gallup poll, 31% of Americans identify as Democrat, 25% as Republican, and 40% identify as Independent, suggesting a significant portion of the population is not strictly tribal in their political affiliation.
21 Actionable Insights
1. Cooperate to Understand Disagreements
Instead of debating to prove others wrong, work cooperatively to identify the root causes of disagreements. This fosters understanding rather than conflict.
2. Flag Disagreements, Don’t Resolve
In discussions, when a disagreement arises, simply flag it and move on rather than trying to resolve it immediately. The goal is to identify points of divergence, not necessarily to win an argument.
3. Encourage Free Expression of Ideas
Radically support the expression of ideas, even those you dislike, as suppressing ideas is abhorrent. The law should define limits on incitement to violence, but not on the expression of philosophical or political views.
4. Respond to Bad Info with More Info
Counter misinformation and bad ideas by providing more information, discussion, and feedback, rather than by silencing or censoring them. This approach allows for confrontation and correction.
5. Avoid Dehumanization & Lumping Groups
Be careful not to use extreme language that lumps diverse groups together as ’evil’ or ‘bad,’ as this dehumanization can lead to dangerous societal outcomes. Recognize nuance and avoid broad generalizations.
6. Cultivate Civil, Compassionate Discourse
Strive to change social norms towards positive, accepting discourse where people with different beliefs can engage civilly. Different perspectives are healthy and necessary for good societal decisions.
7. Maintain Civility, Set High Standards
Do not respond to incivility with incivility; instead, maintain a higher standard of civility and respect for free speech. Encourage this standard everywhere, even when others fail to meet it.
8. Favor Methods Where Truth Wins
Design discussions and processes that create an asymmetry where truth has an advantage over falsehood. This means avoiding formats like point-scoring debates and favoring nuanced, good-faith conversations.
9. Question Your Own Beliefs
Assume that everything you believe is at least partially wrong, as ideologies are models and all models are imperfect. This mindset fosters continuous learning and intellectual humility.
10. Learn from Diverse Perspectives
Actively seek out and learn from diverse perspectives, even those you strongly disagree with, to find valuable insights. Incorporate these learnings to make your own understanding more accurate.
11. Think Critically, Question Incentives
Develop a habit of thinking for yourself, questioning why people say what they say, and considering their underlying incentives. This helps in evaluating information rigorously and independently.
12. Prioritize Prosperity for Future Resilience
Favor strategies that enhance global prosperity, strong infrastructure, and mobile economies, especially for the developing world. This builds resilience to deal with future unknown and known crises, including climate change.
13. Invest Heavily in Nuclear Power
Advocate for significant investment in nuclear power and the removal of regulatory barriers to its development. Nuclear is a reliable, low-risk, carbon-free baseload power source that can dramatically reduce emissions.
14. Implement Modest Carbon Tax
Support the implementation of a modest carbon tax to create market incentives for reducing emissions. This allows the market to gradually shift away from fossil fuels without imposing overly drastic costs.
15. End All Business Welfare/Subsidies
Eliminate subsidies for fossil fuels and other industries, ensuring all businesses are treated equally. This allows the market to decide viability without artificial support.
16. Invest in Carbon Capture R&D
Increase investment in research and development for carbon capture technologies, particularly mineral carbon capture. This is crucial for drawing down existing carbon from the atmosphere, as natural methods are insufficient.
17. Value Stability, Caution in Change
Emphasize the importance of stability and caution, preferring to stick with traditional ways of doing things rather than making sudden, radical changes. This approach aims to preserve existing societal good and avoid unintended negative consequences.
18. Embrace Change for Societal Improvement
Adopt a mindset that actively seeks to make things better and is willing to try new approaches. This perspective acknowledges that society can always improve and problems can be solved through innovation.
19. Skepticism of Rapid, Untested Change
Approach rapid societal changes with skepticism, similar to how biological systems need reliable replication with only gradual, testable mutations. Avoid ‘flooding normal with experimental’ to prevent accumulating failed, untested changes.
20. Carefully Consider New Technologies
Adopt a protocol for new technologies by carefully considering each one and deciding whether to allow it, with a bias towards caution. This ensures conscious adoption rather than simply letting market forces dictate.
21. Question Information Agendas
Maintain a healthy skepticism when receiving information, always considering the potential agendas or factors that might compel someone to present information in a particular way. This helps in discerning bias.
6 Key Quotes
I think of the analogy of of genetics and biology. We need we need genetic replication to be to have a high fidelity, we need it to be reliable, otherwise organisms fail pretty quickly. But we also need mutations.
Hank
I'm an extremist in this regard. I think that if you enable people to silence things that they just find beyond the pale, eventually people will silence all sorts of things that they find objectionable.
Hank
I think that we we are not we are not a species of people who are always fighting to be at the top of the pile. I think we're people who I think we're a species that wants to be secure in a known place and with a certain degree of freedom there.
Hank
I think that's the the nub of it truly, which is why I think Cassandra you and I can never talk because because I think it's emotional. I think that we're wired a particular way and we're two smart people who can justify our positions but at the end of the day I like I feel safe with tradition and you feel enthusiastic about change and that's that that seems accurate.
Hank
I think both of us do see the value of both the conservative and liberal perspectives.
Cassandra Shia
I think it's very dangerous to use words in a in a increasingly extreme way right like there's such a difference between you know an actual nazi versus someone who supports conservative ideology which you might very strongly disagree with you might think it's really really harmful but it's definitely not being a nazi right.
Spencer Greenberg