Poker and Productivity (with Chris Sparks)
Spencer Greenberg and Ronnie Fernandez discuss the utility of caring for others' experiences, distinguishing beliefs from reality, interpreting moral discourse, and the value of studying philosophy. They also explore methods for improving collective wisdom and rationality to address societal challenges.
Deep Dive Analysis
15 Topic Outline
Understanding Normative Hedonism and Its Limitations
Differentiating Selfishness, Altruism, and Preferences
The Nature of Care: Experiences vs. External Events
Evolutionary Basis of Intrinsic Values and Desires
Distinguishing Between Wanting, Wanting to Want, and Endorsing
Arguments for Only Caring About Conscious Experiences
Critique of Normative Moral Discourse
Addressing Disagreements in Moral Claims
The Role of Moral Trade in Resolving Conflicts
Evolutionary Purpose of Morality as a Coordination Mechanism
Progress and Disagreement in Philosophy
Philosophy as a Tool for Argument Analysis and Concept Refinement
The Role and Limitations of Intuition in Philosophy
Benefits and Costs of Studying Philosophy
Systematic Wisdom and Rationality for Societal Challenges
5 Key Concepts
Normative Hedonism
This is the claim that the only things that truly matter are experiences, or what's going on inside people's minds. The guest argues it's not the only thing one can or should care about, suggesting it's not a necessary philosophical stance.
Moral Abolitionism
This perspective suggests that the entire practice of moral discourse (statements like 'that was wrong' or 'that's good') is problematic. It argues that when trying to make sense of what's being said, or what the world would need to be like for such statements to be sensible, it seems unlikely the world fits that description.
Moral Trade
This concept proposes that instead of viewing moral disagreements as one party being fundamentally 'wrong,' individuals or groups can trade on their differing values. For example, if one person values animal welfare and another values helping the poor, they can cooperate to achieve more of both, rather than arguing over whose value is 'correct'.
Rapid Discounters
This describes animals, including humans, who tend to prioritize smaller, immediate benefits over much larger benefits that are available later. This short-sightedness can be a challenge for long-term cooperation and self-control.
AI Debate Framework
This is a paradigm for making AI systems useful and safe by having them debate each other on a given question. A human judge evaluates the debate, and the hope is that the judge can better determine the correct answer by observing the debate than by trying to answer the question themselves.
8 Questions Answered
Normative hedonism posits that only experiences within people's minds truly matter. It's often misunderstood because people argue it's the *only* thing one can care about, but thought experiments suggest it's reasonable to care about things not directly in one's experience, making it not a necessary stance.
Yes, people can care about things outside their direct experience. An example is an artist caring about what happens to their art after they die, even though they won't experience it, or wanting children to genuinely love them rather than just believing they do.
Humans have a capacity to distinguish between a belief and the actual state of the world. For example, one might want their children to truly love them, not just to believe that their children love them, indicating a desire for an external reality beyond internal belief.
The problem is that moral discourse (e.g., 'killing babies is wrong') implies an objective, intrinsic property of right or wrong, independent of anyone's attitudes. However, it's difficult to make sense of what the world would have to be like for such claims to be factual, leading to intractable disagreements.
We can improve disagreements by conducting empirical work on interventions, such as training programs or protocols, that make people better at figuring out the truth through conversation. This involves observing if parties are more confident in the truth after a disagreement than before.
Philosophy does make progress, not necessarily by settling questions, but by adding new concepts, arguments, and tools to the conversation. This narrows down consistent sets of assumptions, refines views, and shifts reasonable credences towards certain explanations.
While some philosophers explicitly ground knowledge in intuition, others view it as potentially getting in the way of clear philosophical thinking. Thought experiments often serve as 'intuition pumps' to sway opinions, but their effectiveness as evidence for truth is debated.
Studying philosophy can be intrinsically fun and fulfilling for those curious about fundamental questions. It also helps develop skills in analyzing arguments, making subtle distinctions, and framing interesting questions, though these skills can also be gained from other fields.
22 Actionable Insights
1. Prioritize Societal Wisdom
Prioritize and work towards increasing societal wisdom and rationality to mitigate risks from rapidly advancing technology and complex global challenges, as humanity’s power is growing faster than its wisdom.
2. Cultivate Compassionate Wisdom
Develop wisdom that focuses on clarifying goals, understanding trade-offs, and integrating compassion to ensure that increased power benefits all conscious beings and promotes thriving.
3. Foster Widespread Cooperation
Actively seek and implement strategies for widespread cooperation, especially among adversarial groups, to address complex global challenges like nuclear weapons or climate change, which cannot be solved unilaterally.
4. Improve Truth-Seeking Disagreement
Engage in empirical research and implement interventions (e.g., training programs, moderation, specific protocols) to make people better at discerning truth through conversation and constructive disagreement.
5. Strive for Constructive Disagreement
Aim for disagreements where all parties become more confident in the truth afterward, rather than just arguing or fighting, to make people better at figuring out the truth.
6. Enhance Individual Decision-Making
Actively seek ways to improve your decision-making and belief-formation processes to enhance individual well-being and achieve personal goals.
7. Practice Moral Trade
Engage in ‘moral trade’ by recognizing that others have different values, allowing for cooperation and mutual benefit rather than constant argument or conflict.
8. Avoid Moral Absolutism
When values conflict, focus on the tension between your values and theirs rather than declaring them ‘wrong,’ to clarify the nature of the disagreement and open avenues for cooperation.
9. Identify Neutral Areas for Trade
Recognize topics where you are neutral towards others’ values, as these present opportunities for ‘moral trade’ and cooperation.
10. Be Honest About Your Values
Be truthful with yourself about what you truly care about, avoiding the trap of sacrificing genuine values for what you think you’re supposed to care about.
11. Care Beyond Experiences
Allow yourself to care about things beyond just conscious experiences, such as direct events or non-experiential outcomes, as this expands your capacity for value.
12. Recognize Intrinsic Desires
Understand that some desires, like wanting to be attractive or for your children to love you, may be fundamental intrinsic values, not just means to other ends or beliefs about them.
13. Distinguish Wanting vs. Endorsing
Practice distinguishing between what you actually want (e.g., liking smoking) and what you endorse or want to want (e.g., endorsing not smoking), as these are distinct psychological mechanisms.
14. Minimize Intuition in Analysis
When engaging in rigorous philosophical or analytical thinking, consciously try to minimize the influence of your intuitions on your conclusions and arguments.
15. Hone Argumentation Skills
Develop skills in analyzing arguments and making subtle distinctions, as these are useful benefits of studying philosophy and other analytical fields.
16. Consult Philosophers for Problems
If working on a specific problem, consult philosophers who have explored related issues to gain deeper insights and avoid conceptual confusion.
17. Question Argumentation Training
Be aware that training to argue for any position (as in some philosophy or debate) may not improve your ability to discern truth; focus on truth-seeking, not just persuasive argumentation.
18. Study Philosophy for Interest
Pursue philosophy if you are intrinsically interested and curious about its fundamental questions, as it can be a fulfilling intellectual endeavor.
19. Consider Economics First
For most people, consider studying economics before philosophy, as it may offer more practical benefits.
20. Use Daily Ritual Program
Utilize the free ‘Daily Ritual’ program from Clearer Thinking to learn simple techniques for forming new, beneficial daily habits.
21. Answer Life-Changing Questions
Answer the ’life-changing questions’ from Clearer Thinking to gain new and important insights about yourself.
22. Collaborate on Truth-Seeking
If interested in improving truth-seeking through disagreement, consider collaborating with Ronnie Fernandez or utilizing his existing infrastructure for empirical work on this topic.
7 Key Quotes
If you want to use that definition of selfishness, sure. But you've basically in that definition removed all the interesting stuff of what we mean by altruism, right?
Spencer Greenberg
I mean, I don't care about it in the present tense when I'm dead, but I care about what happens after I die, for instance.
Ronnie Fernandez
It's not just that you want to believe your children love you. Like let's say someone's like, here's a pill you can take. If you take it, you'll believe your children will love you, even they don't. It would be very unsatisfying. They actually want the children to love them regardless of their belief about it, right?
Spencer Greenberg
I think it's not up to you what you care about. And sometimes you don't even know. I do think it's up to you what you endorse caring about or whatever you, what you endorse, endorse preferring or, you know, whatever effective attitudes, like you can endorse whichever ones are unendorse, whichever ones.
Ronnie Fernandez
I like smoking, but I don't endorse smoking is something like that. Or you could even have, you could have like more sophisticated ones. Like I'm not okay with prostitution, but I endorse being okay with prostitution, something like that.
Ronnie Fernandez
I think that people who work in philosophy of language, I mean, they seem to pretty much think of themselves as empirical scientists who are building models of, you know, different fragments of natural language.
Ronnie Fernandez
I think unfortunately there are kind of incentives in the field where it's like a good way to make a name for yourself is to find something that's obviously true and then make the best possible argument about against it.
Ronnie Fernandez