Productive Conversations and Feedback Loops (with Julia Carvalho)
Spencer Greenberg and Julia Carvalho discuss effective management, productive conversations, and building great products. They cover giving specific feedback, active listening techniques, and using iterative feedback loops to refine ideas and understand user needs.
Deep Dive Analysis
9 Topic Outline
How to be a better manager and give specific feedback
The dynamics of misinterpreting positive social attention
The role and value of small talk in social connection
Strategies for becoming a better and more effective listener
A framework for giving constructive and well-informed advice
Understanding and debugging personal habits and behaviors
The optimization loop for building great products
Leveraging different tools for product development and user feedback
The importance and nature of feedback loops for expertise
7 Key Concepts
Overly Positive Feedback Failure Mode
When managers or friends are consistently positive and never critical, it undermines trust and psychological safety, making it difficult for the recipient to know if their work is truly good or to identify areas for improvement. It creates ambiguity rather than genuine appreciation.
Breath-First Search (Small Talk)
Julia's model where small talk acts as an initial broad exploration to find common ground or agreeable topics, allowing for connection and deeper conversation to emerge. It's a way to quickly identify shared experiences or interests.
Listening as Untangling Yarn
A framework for listening where the listener's role is not to provide solutions, but to help the speaker sort through their thoughts and clarify their situation by asking questions, much like untangling a complex ball of yarn.
Causal Model of Advice
Spencer's approach to giving advice by first building a mental model of the person's situation through extensive questioning, understanding the underlying dynamics, and then offering multiple potential solutions for the person to evaluate and debug.
Optimization Loop (Product Development)
A continuous process in product development (and personal growth) where one identifies their current model, determines what needs to be learned to refine it, uses appropriate tools to gather information, updates the model based on findings, and then repeats the cycle.
Looping the Question (Product Development)
Spencer's specific optimization loop for building products, starting with a 'meta-question' ('What do I need to know that I don't know?'), deriving an 'object-level question,' using a 'tool belt' to answer it, and then returning to the meta-question.
Feedback Loop for Expertise
True expertise in a domain is often developed and maintained through consistent, clear, and relevant feedback on one's actions and decisions, allowing for continuous learning and refinement of skills and knowledge. Without such loops, an 'expert' may not truly understand the long-term impact of their work.
9 Questions Answered
Specific feedback is more credible, reinforces desired behaviors, and creates psychological safety by showing the manager truly understands and values the individual's unique contributions, allowing them to trust the feedback more.
Constantly being overly positive and avoiding negative feedback can create ambiguity and distrust, as the recipient cannot discern genuine appreciation from generic niceness, leading to insecurity about the true nature of the relationship or performance.
Individuals have different baselines for social connection; someone not used to receiving warm attention might interpret it as more profound or romantic, while the giver might simply be acting according to their generally friendly personality.
A helpful approach is to relax and focus on understanding, rather than formulating a perfect reply. Practicing silent listening, where you absorb what the other person says without interruption or reaction, can reveal how much connection is built simply by presence.
Instead of immediately offering solutions, aim to build a detailed causal model of their situation by asking clarifying questions. Then, propose a few options and ask the person which they think would be most helpful, allowing them to debug and refine the advice based on their unique context.
Recognizing that even undesirable behaviors often provide some underlying benefit (e.g., procrastination reduces stress) is crucial. This awareness allows one to devise strategies to obtain that benefit in a healthier way, making the habit change less difficult.
Zoom in on the exact moment the behavior occurs, breaking it down step-by-step to understand the triggers and internal processes. This detailed understanding helps in developing targeted strategies rather than guessing at solutions.
The meta-question is 'What do I need to know that I don't know?' It serves as the starting point for an iterative process of discovery, guiding the team to identify critical unknowns before moving to specific questions and tools.
Feedback is only valuable if it comes from the right target audience and is designed to optimize for the desired outcomes. Misleading feedback from non-target users or feedback that encourages undesirable behaviors (e.g., outrage bait on social media) can be detrimental to product direction.
35 Actionable Insights
1. Build Causal Model for Advice
Before giving advice, build a detailed mental causal model of the person’s situation by asking many questions to understand the underlying dynamics, ensuring your advice is well-informed and relevant.
2. Maintain Product Optimization Loop
In product development, continuously ask, ‘What is my current model? What do I need to learn next?’ to filter all actions and refine your understanding of the product and users.
3. Implement Anonymous Feedback Surveys
Actively add feedback loops, such as anonymous weekly surveys for clients or patients, to gather crucial insights on what is helpful or not, enabling continuous improvement in your service.
4. Give Specific, Principle-Based Feedback
When giving feedback, be highly specific about what was done well or poorly, and explain the underlying principle so the person understands how to apply the lesson in future situations.
5. Give Negative Feedback for Trust
Don’t hesitate to give critical feedback, as withholding it can undermine trust and psychological safety, leaving others frustrated and uncertain about what to improve.
6. Help Untangle Problems, Don’t Solve
When listening to someone with a problem, view their situation as a ’tangled ball of yarn’ and focus on asking clarifying questions to help them sort through it, rather than immediately offering solutions.
7. Loop the Question for Products
For any project, start with the ‘meta question’ (What do I need to know that I don’t know?), then answer specific ‘object-level questions’ using various tools, and immediately return to the meta question in a continuous loop.
8. Identify Benefits of Bad Behaviors
When trying to change a ‘bad’ behavior, honestly acknowledge any hidden benefits you’re getting from it, as this understanding can help you find alternative ways to meet those needs and make change easier.
9. Zoom In on Undesired Behavior
To understand and change a problematic behavior, pay extremely close attention to the exact moment it happens (or immediately after), breaking it down moment-by-moment to gain crucial insights into its triggers and dynamics.
10. Listening Exercise: No-Reaction Talk
To improve listening, have a housemate speak for seven minutes with their eyes closed, without you reacting at all, then switch roles; this helps understand the value of presence over constant responses.
11. Avoid Interjecting or Unsolicited Advice
When someone is speaking, avoid interjecting, giving unsolicited advice, or jumping on a piece they said to talk about yourself, as this can derail their connection and feeling of being heard.
12. Ask Clarifying Questions
Actively ask clarifying questions, such as ‘in what way?’ or ‘what is differently?’, to ensure you fully understand what the other person is saying and help them expand on their thoughts.
13. Offer Options, Seek Advice Feedback
When giving advice, propose two or three options and ask which one the person thinks would be most helpful, bringing them into the loop and leveraging their deeper understanding of their own situation.
14. Explore Advice Implementation Challenges
After offering advice, ask the person if they plan to implement it and what challenges they foresee, without pressure, to further refine the strategy and uncover deeper issues.
15. Respect Others’ Situational Understanding
Recognize that people are generally reasonable within their own reference frame, and if they decline advice, it likely means there’s a deeper underlying pressure or reason you haven’t yet understood.
16. Use A/B Tests for Behavior
To understand how people will behave in a specific situation, use A/B tests to put users directly into that situation, as this provides the most true-to-life data on their actions.
17. Consult Experts for Theory
When developing a theory of what’s going on or understanding complex user behavior, consult experts to gain ideas and map out the dynamics of that particular space or behavior.
18. Assess Expert Feedback Loops
When evaluating an expert’s advice, consider the specific feedback loops they experience in their area of expertise, as true expertise is often built on direct, repeated learning from outcomes.
19. Actively Add Feedback Loops
Consciously integrate feedback loops into your activities, as many things can be significantly improved by systematically gathering information on performance and impact, even if it’s not a standard practice.
20. Ensure Feedback From Target Audience
When seeking feedback, ensure it comes from your intended target audience or main users, as feedback from slightly different groups can be subtly misleading and push your efforts in the wrong direction.
21. Optimize for Right Kind of Feedback
Be mindful of the type of feedback you’re optimizing for; ensure it aligns with your desired outcomes (e.g., value, resonance) rather than potentially negative metrics like outrage or mere attention.
22. Iterative Content Creation with Feedback
Develop content through an iterative, multi-stage feedback process: start with a small idea (e.g., Twitter), gauge resonance, expand to a larger platform (e.g., Facebook) for critiques, then refine and polish (e.g., blog) with final edits.
23. Small Talk as Breadth-First Search
View small talk as a ‘breadth-first search’ to quickly find common ground or an agreeable topic, fostering connection by identifying shared experiences or interests.
24. Ask About Interests for Connection
Instead of generic small talk, ask questions like ‘What are you interested in?’ or ‘What are you excited about?’ to more quickly find common ground and foster deeper connections.
25. Share Emotions for Connection
To build connection, shortcut to sharing an emotion, such as shared exasperation or amusement over a common experience, which can quickly create a sense of rapport.
26. Relax When Listening
When trying to be a better listener, relax and let go of the pressure to formulate the perfect response, as worrying about what to say next can hinder genuine listening.
27. Build ‘No’ Muscle
If you struggle to say no, consciously work on building that ’no’ muscle; this allows you to engage in more situations without the stress of anticipating unwanted requests or commitments.
28. Subtlety in Romantic Interest
If you are interested in someone romantically, approach subtly and allow interest to develop slowly, as overt pursuit can make it difficult for the other person to develop their own feelings of wanting more.
29. Anticipation Fuels Romantic Interest
Understand that anticipation, or ‘wanting more than you have,’ is a key component of developing a crush; if someone pursues too hard, this anticipation is lost, making it harder for feelings to grow.
30. Avoid Rushing Romantic Pacing
Be mindful of pacing in romantic pursuits; moving too fast can force the other person into a ‘gatekeeping’ mindset, which is not conducive to developing genuine affection.
31. Initiate if Feelings Develop Slowly
If you tend to develop romantic feelings very slowly, consider initiating romantic situations yourself, as others who initiate may be months ahead in their feelings, leading to an imbalance.
32. Address External Procrastination Pressures
If procrastination stems from feeling a task is unimportant or misprioritized, step back and try to resolve the external pressure or clarify its necessity, rather than just pushing through.
33. Use Therapists for Accountability
Leverage therapists not just for life skills, but for the structured time they provide to reflect on self-improvement goals and the social pressure to act on those intentions.
34. Test Causal Models for Self-Correction
Apply your causal models of behavior to try and solve problems; if a strategy based on your model doesn’t work, use that as feedback to update and refine your understanding of what’s truly going on.
35. Prioritize Trustworthy Information
In any decision-making process, prioritize ignoring misleading information and actively seeking out information that you can trust, as this is often harder and more crucial than simply acquiring data.
9 Key Quotes
It's not that you want to be seen as good. It's not that you want to be told that you did a good job, but you want to understand that the people around you know that what makes you and you good has been specifically acknowledged or is specifically valued.
Julia Carvalho
If I don't ever receive any feedback that's critical from my manager, I might be a little frustrated because I don't know what to improve on, but I also just don't trust that I'm really getting their thoughts.
Julia Carvalho
I think I often encounter people that seem to have that attitude [that a purely platonic, deep friendship with someone of the opposite gender is implausible].
Spencer Greenberg
I think of small talk as this breath first search that you use to figure out where you and the other person might have an agreeable topic to talk about, to have some sort of connection or some sort of like fun conversation.
Julia Carvalho
People are generally quite reasonable in their own reference frame.
Spencer Greenberg
Most of the time when we have a behavior that like we consider bad, or like, that we want to change about ourselves, there is some benefit we're getting out of it.
Spencer Greenberg
The space of possibilities is way too large. So it's like, if you just kind of guess and try things at random, it's actually really, really hard to solve problems.
Spencer Greenberg
The hardest thing is not getting information, but is ignoring misleading information, or at least getting information that you can trust.
Julia Carvalho
What is an expert really an expert in? Because I tend to take the view that a lot of time experts are not expert in the things that people expect them to be.
Spencer Greenberg
3 Protocols
Silent Listening Experiment
Julia Carvalho- Grab a housemate or friend and your phone.
- Set a timer for seven minutes.
- Sit back-to-back or in a way where you cannot see each other.
- One person closes their eyes and speaks continuously for seven minutes about anything they want, while the other person listens silently without reacting.
- Switch roles and repeat the process.
- After both have spoken, discuss how the experience felt.
Spencer Greenberg's Advice-Giving Framework
Spencer Greenberg- Assess if the person truly wants and needs advice, rather than just validation or listening.
- Build a 'mini causal model' of the person's situation by asking a series of questions to understand the underlying dynamics and fill in information gaps.
- Propose two or three different potential options or strategies based on your causal model.
- Ask the person which of the proposed options they think would be most helpful in their situation.
- If they express enthusiasm, ask them about potential challenges they foresee in implementing the chosen strategy to further refine the plan and debug issues.
- Respect their decision if they choose not to pursue a suggested strategy, recognizing there may be deeper, unarticulated reasons.
Spencer Greenberg's Idea Refinement and Feedback Loop
Spencer Greenberg- Post a kernel of an idea on Twitter daily to gauge initial resonance and reactions.
- If the idea resonates, expand it into a Facebook post to gather more detailed comments, critiques, and suggested improvements from a broader audience.
- Update the Facebook post based on the feedback received, honing the idea through iterative refinement.
- If the idea is sufficiently developed and refined, port it to a personal blog for a final polishing pass, including grammar checks and professional review.