Psychological Models and Parenting (with Divia Eden)
Divya Eden discusses Internal Family Systems (IFS) for understanding internal emotional parts, contrasts operant conditioning with attachment theory in parenting and pet training, and explores decision theory's potential to synthesize psychological models.
Deep Dive Analysis
17 Topic Outline
Introduction to Internal Family Systems (IFS) Model
Understanding Exiles, Managers, and Firefighters in IFS
Connecting IFS to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and Mindfulness
The IFS Process: Working with Internal Parts
Spencer's Perspective on Emotions and Their Information
Divya's Experience with Tiredness as an IFS Part
IFS as a Simplified Model of Psychology and Introspection
Introduction to Operant Conditioning and Clicker Training
The Mechanics and Benefits of Clicker Training
Operant Conditioning: Rewards vs. Punishments
Applying Clicker Training Principles to Pet Behavior
Attachment Theory and its Application to Dogs and Humans
Parenting through the Lens of Attachment Theory vs. Operant Conditioning
The Challenge of Coercion and High-Stakes Rewards
Navigating Child Distress and Parental Manipulation
Decision Theory: Newcomb's Problem and Timeless Decision Making
Unifying Psychological Theories with Decision Theory
10 Key Concepts
Internal Family Systems (IFS)
A therapy method where individuals think of themselves as being made up of different 'parts,' each with distinct feelings, beliefs, and motivations. The model helps to understand and work with these internal parts to resolve conflicts and heal past experiences.
Self (in IFS)
A core aspect of an individual that is distinct from their parts, characterized by qualities like curiosity, openness, and compassion. It's the perspective from which one can observe and relate to their parts without being 'blended' with them.
Exiles (in IFS)
Child-like parts that hold pain, shame, or fear from past overwhelming experiences and are often 'shut away' by other parts. These parts can remain stuck in the past, unable to update their beliefs or emotional state.
Managers (in IFS)
Protector parts that control behavior to prevent exiles from being triggered or to avoid pain. They try to keep an individual safe by preemptively managing situations and interactions to prevent distress.
Firefighters (in IFS)
Protector parts that react when an exile's pain is triggered, often through impulsive or distracting behaviors (e.g., checking social media, destructive habits) to alleviate overwhelming feelings after the fact.
Operant Conditioning
A learning process where behavior is modified by its consequences. It involves associating a voluntary behavior with a reward or punishment, making the behavior more or less likely to occur in the future.
Clicker Training
A specific application of operant conditioning, primarily used with animals, where a 'click' sound (an event marker) is precisely timed to mark a desired behavior, immediately followed by a reward (e.g., food). This helps the animal understand exactly what action is being rewarded.
Shaping by Successive Approximations
A technique in operant conditioning where an animal is rewarded for behaviors that gradually get closer to the desired final behavior. This allows for teaching complex behaviors by breaking them down into smaller, achievable steps.
Attachment Theory
A psychological model that describes the long-term relationships between humans, particularly between children and caregivers. It posits that early interactions shape an individual's 'attachment style' (e.g., secure, anxious, avoidant), influencing how they relate to others and manage distress.
Timeless Decision Theory
A framework for making decisions that considers the decision-maker's choice not just as a single event, but as an instance of a general algorithm or policy. It suggests that one's decision influences not only the immediate outcome but also the predictions made by other agents (or even one's future self) who might be running similar algorithms.
9 Questions Answered
It's a therapy method that views a person as being made up of different 'parts,' each with distinct feelings and motivations, and a core 'Self' that can observe and interact with these parts.
Exiled parts, which hold past pain or shame, can manifest as pervasive feelings (like guilt) or unfortunate self-concepts that pop up in different scenarios, often without the individual realizing the root cause.
IFS shares similarities with CBT and mindfulness in encouraging individuals to step back from thoughts and beliefs, viewing them as objects rather than being 'blended' with them, but IFS assigns these thoughts and feelings to distinct 'parts.'
In clicker training, an animal performs a desired behavior, a clicker makes a precise sound to mark that exact moment, and then a reward (like food) is given, teaching the animal to associate the behavior with the reward.
Yes, by training alternate behaviors (e.g., teaching a dog to sit instead of jumping up) or by consistently rewarding desired behaviors that naturally replace unwanted ones (e.g., rewarding a dog for peeing outside).
It's a theory describing the bond between a child and caregiver, leading to different 'attachment styles' (secure, anxious, avoidant) that influence how individuals relate to others, express emotions, and seek closeness.
While operant conditioning principles like shaping can be useful in parenting for teaching skills, human children also have a strong desire for autonomy and can make 'policy decisions' about whether they want to be shaped, unlike animals.
It's a thought experiment involving a perfect predictor and two boxes, where choosing only one box (even if it seems irrational in the moment) leads to a better outcome because the predictor anticipated that choice.
Decision theory, particularly timeless decision theory, suggests that one's decisions are not just for the immediate self but for all sufficiently similar algorithms, including how others model you, which can help integrate concepts from IFS, operant conditioning, and attachment theory by considering the impact on trust and information flow.
17 Actionable Insights
1. Understand Internal Parts (IFS)
Conceptualize yourself as being made up of different parts (exiles, managers, firefighters, Self) to better understand internal conflicts and motivations. This framework helps identify the protective roles of managers (preventing pain) and firefighters (distracting from pain) and the underlying pain of exiled child parts.
2. Listen to Internal Parts with Curiosity
When experiencing internal conflict or a strong emotion, approach the ‘part’ associated with it with curiosity and openness, rather than immediately trying to problem-solve. This empathetic listening allows you to fully understand the part’s story, motivations, and the emotional picture driving its behavior.
3. Ask Parts to Step Aside
If an analytical or emotional part is overwhelming or blocking access to deeper feelings, ask it to ‘step aside’ temporarily. This technique, often used in IFS, allows for a high-bandwidth connection to the emotional side of what’s going on, leading to less blended and more objective self-awareness.
4. Negotiate with Internal Parts Authentically
If a part is manifesting an unwanted state (e.g., persistent sleepiness), try to understand its underlying message (e.g., ‘prioritize sleep more’). Make an authentic deal or commitment to address its concern, and the unwanted state may resolve immediately, as the part no longer needs to signal.
5. Prefer Reward Over Punishment
When training animals or influencing human behavior, prioritize positive reinforcement (rewards) over punishment. Rewards foster a positive relationship and encourage desired behaviors, whereas punishment often teaches avoidance of the punisher rather than eliminating the unwanted behavior.
6. Shape Desired Behaviors with Small Steps
To teach new habits or behaviors, start with very small, achievable steps and consistently reward each successive approximation towards the desired outcome. This ‘shaping’ technique is effective for both self-training and influencing others, making complex behaviors attainable.
7. Identify Internal “Upvote” for Self-Reward
Discover your unique internal ‘upvote’ or psychological reward (e.g., ‘Yes, I did that!’) that naturally occurs after doing something awesome. Intentionally use this internal reward immediately after performing a desired habit to reinforce it and make it stick.
8. Understand Underlying Needs for Behavior
When a child or pet exhibits an unwanted behavior (e.g., cat biting, child tantrum), first seek to understand why they are doing it and what they are trying to communicate or achieve. Addressing the underlying need or providing an acceptable alternative can often resolve the behavior more effectively than punishment.
9. View Misbehavior as Stress Signals
Adopt the perspective that most undesirable behaviors in children are downstream of them being stressed or upset in some way. This reframing encourages empathy and problem-solving to address the root cause of stress, rather than solely focusing on behavior modification.
10. Encourage Safe Expression of Distress
Foster an environment where children feel safe and comfortable expressing their distress to you. Avoid viewing crying or strong emotional expressions as inherently bad or manipulative, as they are crucial for attachment and communicating important needs.
11. Prioritize Understanding Needs in Relationships
In any close relationship, when someone expresses a strong preference or distress, prioritize making a ‘relational update’ to understand how much they truly care about the issue. Be willing to reconsider your stance based on this updated understanding, fostering trust and deeper connection.
12. Adopt Timeless Decision-Making in Relationships
In high-trust, iterative relationships, view your decisions not just as affecting the present moment, but also as influencing how the other person models and predicts your future behavior. Make choices that align with the kind of person you want to be perceived as, fostering long-term trust and cooperation.
13. Debug New Habits Early
If a new habit isn’t catching on after the first few attempts, don’t wait; debug it immediately. There’s likely a better way to implement or reward the habit that needs to be discovered.
14. Establish Clear, Non-Negotiable Boundaries
For behaviors that are truly unacceptable or disruptive, establish clear, non-negotiable boundaries. Consistently avoid rewarding the unwanted behavior to prevent inadvertently reinforcing it, while still seeking to understand underlying motivations.
15. Avoid Coercive High-Stakes Rewards
Be cautious of offering extremely high-stakes rewards for behaviors that might cause internal conflict or stress. Such rewards can feel coercive and lead to negative fallout, even if the reward itself is positive.
16. Recognize Self-Rewarding Behaviors
Understand that some behaviors (e.g., a dog barking) can be self-rewarding by relieving tension or serving an internal purpose, and thus may not respond to external rewards or punishments.
17. Verify Techniques with Real-World Change
When trying new psychological techniques or frameworks (like IFS), measure their effectiveness by observing real, tangible changes in your behavior or situation. Avoid optimizing for internal ‘heuristics’ of success and focus on practical outcomes.
8 Key Quotes
Part of me wants to do this thing, but part of me thinks that I shouldn't do that thing.
Divya Eden
Emotions are sort of like detectors for different things and they give you information just like any detector they can go haywire.
Spencer Greenberg
The real proof is in the pudding. Like, does it improve the situation?
Divya Eden
I think part of what IFS is, is a set of tools for introspection that once I managed to introspect, I think it was just pretty different from the guesses that I'd read elsewhere.
Divya Eden
I think the first thing can be a lot more shallow often because I don't know whether it's culture or just human nature, but I think a lot of the times before we can really get to the heart of things, things sound different from how they really are, particularly like filtered for sort of reasonableness and stuff like that.
Divya Eden
I think that most of the things that people object to in terms of kid behavior is downstream of the kids being stressed in some way.
Divya Eden
I think it's easy as a parent to have some idea in my head of, oh, I wish for my kid we're doing something that's like 180 degrees different from what they're doing right now. And to miss when they make like a one degree shift towards something that I think would be more functional.
Divya Eden
I think that the bigger risk is me trying to manipulate them into relating to me in some way that seems less embarrassing or more acceptable to me.
Divya Eden
3 Protocols
IFS Process for Resolving Internal Conflict
Divya Eden- Identify a 'trailhead' – a situation where you feel stuck or have internal conflict (e.g., getting angry at a partner).
- Ask how you feel towards the active part (e.g., the angry part). If you feel another emotion (e.g., frustration), ask that part to step aside.
- Continue this process until you feel curious and open towards the target part.
- Get the 'whole story' from the target part, understanding its motivations, constraints, and stakes.
- If talking to a protector part (manager/firefighter), establish enough trust for it to let you see the exile it's protecting.
- Get the 'whole story' and emotional impact from the exiled child part, including any overwhelming pain or unhelpful beliefs.
- Engage in steps to symbolically 'let go' of the pain and update the exile's understanding of the present reality (e.g., 'this isn't what my life is like now').
- Return to the protector part, which will then be able to adopt a healthier, more functional role now that the exile is no longer in so much pain.
Clicker Training for Habits (BJ Fogg's Tiny Habits)
Divya Eden- Identify a desired behavior or habit you want to form.
- Start the habit small, making it easy to perform initially.
- Immediately after performing the desired behavior, give yourself an internal 'upvote' or psychological reward (e.g., 'Yes, I did that!').
- If the habit doesn't seem to be catching on after a few repetitions, debug it immediately rather than waiting.
- Gradually grow the habit over time, using shaping by successive approximations.
Bond-Based Choice Training for Dogs (e.g., stopping jumping up)
Divya Eden- When a dog exhibits an unwanted behavior (e.g., jumping up to greet), recognize it as a bid for connection.
- Connect with the dog and pet it, providing the desired closeness.
- Continue petting the dog until it voluntarily gets down or relaxes.
- Repeat this consistently as many times as needed, allowing the dog to feel secure and reassured, which naturally reduces the unwanted behavior.