Should we try to live forever? (with Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston)

Aug 22, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dr. Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston discusses longevity trade-offs across species, the evolving definition of death, and the scientific plausibility of revival technologies like cryopreservation and brain uploading. He explores philosophical questions of consciousness and personal identity in the context of future medical advancements.

At a Glance
9 Insights
1h 14m Duration
16 Topics
8 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Longevity Differences and Evolutionary Trade-offs Across Species

Antagonistic Pleiotropy: The Genetic Trade-off Between Growth and Lifespan

Expanding Human Lifespan Through Reduced Early Mortality

The History and Future of Medical Technology: Stasis and Revival

Scientific Feasibility of Human Preservation and Revival

Evolving Definitions of Death: From Heartbeat to Brain Function

Personal Identity and Consciousness in the Face of Brain Damage

Induced Hypothermia: Slowing Time for Surgical Procedures

Cryoprotectants and the Glass State for Tissue Preservation

Challenges of Cryoprotectant Use and the Promise of Fixation

Brain Uploading: Transferring Consciousness to a Digital Format

Philosophical Dilemmas of Personal Identity and Duplication

Estimating Timelines for Brain Emulation and Uploading

Rethinking Death: Challenging Palliative Philosophy

Societal Implications and Addressable Problems of Extended Lifespans

The Future Loves You: Hope and Imperative for a Flourishing Future

Antagonistic Pleiotropy

This is a phenomenon where a single gene affects multiple traits, often with opposing effects on fitness at different life stages. For example, a gene might favor early development and reproduction but come at a cost to later-life longevity or disease resistance.

Brain Death

A modern medical definition of death, typically defined as the irreversible cessation of all brain functions. However, this definition can be murky as some residual brain functions (like hypothalamus control) may persist, and technology is slowly improving at reversing some brain function loss.

Personal Identity (Psychological View)

This philosophical view suggests that what makes someone the same person over time is the continuation of their psychological properties, such as memories, personality, goals, desires, and consciousness. It implies that changes to physical material or breaks in consciousness do not necessarily negate identity, as long as these psychological attributes are preserved.

Induced Hypothermia (Deep Hypothermic Circulatory Arrest)

A medical technique where a patient's body is cooled to very low temperatures (e.g., 18-20°C) to stop heart and brain activity for a limited time during complex surgeries. This 'pauses' biological processes, allowing surgeons to operate without blood circulation, with high survival rates and preservation of long-term memories.

Glass State (in preservation)

An amorphous solid state achieved in biological tissues when cooled to low temperatures with cryoprotectants. Unlike freezing, which forms damaging ice crystals, the glass state prevents crystal formation, preserving the tissue's structural integrity by solidifying molecules in a jumbled, non-crystalline arrangement.

Fixation (Preservation)

A high-quality preservation technique involving the introduction of preservative chemicals (fixatives like aldehydes) into biological tissue. These chemicals permeate cells and lock all molecules in place, preventing decay and maintaining the fine structural integrity of the tissue, though it currently precludes direct biological revival.

Brain Uploading/Emulation

A conceptual future technology where a highly preserved brain is scanned at extremely high resolution to map all neural connections and properties. This information would then be used to recreate or simulate the brain's functions in a virtual, digital format, with the hope of restoring the original person's consciousness and identity.

Palliative Philosophy

A term used to describe philosophical viewpoints that normalize, comfort, or make death seem less scary or even beneficial, often arising from a historical inability to prevent death. It suggests these views serve to alleviate distress when no better solution is available.

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Why do humans typically live between 70 and 95 years, unlike other species?

Human lifespan is influenced by an evolutionary trade-off between the speed of reaching reproductive age and overall longevity. Species facing high early mortality tend to reproduce quickly and live shorter lives, while those in safer environments can invest in slower development and longer lifespans.

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How does the speed of reproductive age link to longevity?

There's an evolutionary trade-off where genes that favor earlier development and reproduction often come at the cost of later-life longevity. This is due to a limited set of genes that must be calibrated to either accelerate growth or enhance lifespan, a phenomenon called antagonistic pleiotropy.

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How can human longevity be extended based on evolutionary insights?

Evolutionary history shows human lifespans expanded as early-life mortality from violence, starvation, and disease reduced. While genetic changes are slow, continued reduction of early deaths over millennia could theoretically lead to further genetic adaptations for longer lifespans, but modern medical advancements offer faster, non-evolutionary paths.

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What is the current scientific feasibility of human stasis and revival?

Preservation techniques exist today that offer a reasonable chance (e.g., a double-digit percentage) of future revival, even though revival itself is still decades away. The preservation part is considered much easier than the revival part, which lacks current validation.

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What does it mean for someone to be 'dead'?

Historically, death was defined by the cessation of heart and breathing, but with modern life support, the definition shifted to 'irreversible cessation of all brain functions.' However, even this is complex, as some brain functions can persist, and reversal of brain function loss is slowly becoming possible.

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How much brain damage can a person sustain before they are no longer the same person?

While minor brain damage like a concussion likely doesn't change a person's identity, extreme damage leading to significant, lasting changes in memory and personality (like in the case of Phineas Gage) raises philosophical questions about whether the original person still exists, even if the individual is still conscious.

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Is lowering temperature truly analogous to slowing down time biologically?

Yes, reducing temperature directly slows down the rates of chemical reactions within biological systems. This effectively means less 'stuff happens' over the same period of time, making it analogous to slowing or pausing biological time, as seen in induced hypothermia.

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What is the 'glass state' in biological preservation?

The 'glass state' refers to an amorphous solid formed when biological tissue is cooled with cryoprotectants, preventing the formation of damaging ice crystals. In this state, molecules are jumbled together rather than forming ordered crystals, effectively halting chemical reactions and decay.

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What are the challenges of using cryoprotectants for large tissues like whole brains?

While effective for small tissues, cryoprotectants are problematic for larger tissues because they can be toxic, cause dehydration, and do not penetrate large structures like whole brains well. This can lead to significant shrinkage and potential damage, making biological viability difficult to maintain with current technology.

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How does fixation offer an alternative for high-quality brain preservation?

Fixation involves introducing preservative chemicals (fixatives) that permeate all tissues and lock molecules in place, preventing decay and maintaining fine structural integrity without shrinkage or dehydration. This method provides very high-quality structural preservation, though it currently makes direct biological revival impossible.

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What is brain uploading, and how would it work?

Brain uploading conceptually involves scanning a high-quality preserved brain at very high resolution to capture all neural connections and properties. This information would then be used to recreate the brain's functions in a virtual, digital format, potentially restoring the original person's consciousness.

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Would an uploaded copy of a person truly be 'them'?

Philosophically, this is debated, but a psychological view of personal identity suggests that if an upload retains all memories, personality, goals, and consciousness, it would indeed be the same person. The argument is that physical material constantly changes, and consciousness can have breaks, so the continuation of psychological properties is key.

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When might brain emulation technology become feasible for humans?

Neuroscientists surveyed suggest a mouse brain might be uploadable by the 2040s or 2050s, and a human brain by around 2125. However, AI researchers often propose much shorter timelines due to the potential for AI to accelerate scientific discovery.

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How should we think about death, given potential future technologies?

The historical inability to prevent death has led to 'palliative philosophies' that normalize or even valorize it. However, if technologies emerge to extend life, it's argued that death should be viewed as a problem to be solved, similar to how pain in surgery was once accepted but is now avoided with anesthesia.

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Why are people generally supportive of curing diseases but less so of extending lifespan?

People readily support curing specific diseases like cancer or dementia because they are seen as discrete problems. However, discussing lifespan extension in the aggregate can feel 'weird and scary' because it challenges fundamental ideas about human life and raises concerns about societal issues like overpopulation or wealth accumulation.

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How might the possibility of future revival change current generations' thinking?

The hope is that it would foster a stronger connection to the future, encouraging people to take seriously the long-term consequences of their actions. Believing they might live in 2150 or 2200 could motivate them to address current problems like climate change or poverty more proactively.

1. Investigate Specific Fixation Providers

If facing a terminal diagnosis and seeking preservation, investigate companies like Oregon Brain Preservation or Nectome (if offering commercial services), as they specialize in fixation-style procedures that offer high-quality structural preservation, which is preferred over traditional cryopreservation methods.

2. Choose Fixation-Based Preservation

Opt for fixation-based methods using chemicals like aldehydes for tissue preservation, as they provide superior structural integrity of the brain without shrinkage or dehydration damage, making them compatible with future uploading or biological revival technologies.

3. Challenge Palliative Death Philosophy

Recognize that societal acceptance and normalization of death often stem from a “palliative philosophy” developed when no alternatives existed. Challenge the notion that death is inherently good or necessary, considering that most terminally ill patients still express a strong will to live.

4. Advocate for Longevity Options

Support the development and availability of technologies that offer individuals the choice to live longer, rather than being forced to die. This respects personal autonomy and aligns with the observed strong will to live across different age groups and health conditions.

5. Prioritize Psychological Continuity

When considering what constitutes a person’s survival or identity, focus on the continuation of psychological properties such as consciousness, memories, personality, goals, and desires. This perspective helps in understanding how identity might persist through future medical advancements.

6. Address Longevity Challenges Proactively

Acknowledge that extending human lifespan would introduce new societal and environmental challenges, but view these as addressable problems with solutions more palatable than the involuntary death of millions. Actively seek solutions rather than using potential problems as reasons to reject longevity.

7. Work Towards a Flourishing Future

Recognize that the success of future revival technologies depends on creating a flourishing future where society has the capacity and desire to restore preserved individuals. This provides an impetus to actively work towards solving current challenges and ensuring a better world for future generations.

8. Cultivate Stronger Future Connection

Develop a stronger connection to the distant future by taking seriously the possibility of living in those times. This perspective encourages individuals to view their current actions as having a real and personal influence on future generations and the world they might inhabit.

9. Adopt Optimistic Medical Outlook

Recognize the historical trend of groundbreaking medical and scientific advancements over the past centuries. Use this precedent to maintain an optimistic outlook on future progress in treating currently incurable diseases and extending human lifespan.

It seems insane to me that we've gone from a world where we had nothing that could treat infections, no way of providing anesthesia to people who needed surgery. We had very primitive medicine not even that long ago. But nowadays, we can do things like sometimes re-engineer bits of people's immune systems to fight their cancers.

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston

My guess is that like most people, if given the option of more time, whether they're 50 or 80 or even a hundred, as long as they still felt like they were in good health, would never come to a point where they'd be like, I'm done. I'm finished. I don't want to go on anymore.

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston

Death is actually not a good thing. It's something we've always had to deal with. But yeah, it seems really, really bad.

Spencer Greenberg

The Future Loves You, is both a sort of hope and an imperative to people.

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston

If you look at all these different scenarios where you're considering survival, whether it's, does someone survive if they have significant brain damage, or do they survive if they travel through a teleporter, or if they were duplicated, or if they were uploaded, or if they were preserved, then if you systematically work down and you go through the options where, oh, it's survival based on being made of the same biology, or survival based on having the same memories, or based on continuity of consciousness.

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston

Deep Hypothermic Circulatory Arrest (Induced Hypothermia)

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston
  1. Cool the person down to about 20 degrees Celsius or 18 degrees Celsius.
  2. Allow their heart and brain activity to stop.
  3. Perform necessary surgery on blood vessels in the brain or heart within a 45 to 60 minute operating window.
  4. Warm the person back up.

Fixation-Based Tissue Preservation

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston
  1. Introduce preservative chemicals (fixatives like aldehydes and glutaraldehydes) into the body.
  2. Allow the chemicals to permeate inside the body, getting into all different tissues and passing through cell walls.
  3. The chemicals lock everything in place, preventing further decay processes and molecular movements, leading to high-quality tissue preservation.

Brain Uploading/Emulation (Conceptual)

Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston
  1. Preserve a human brain in very high quality, ensuring good structural integrity.
  2. Scan the preserved brain at very high resolution, down to almost individual molecules, to collect information about neural connections and receptor types.
  3. Recreate this full set of information in a virtual digital format.
  4. Run the emulation, ensuring the emulated neurons can change over time to enable learning, thereby restoring the original person to consciousness.
70 to 95 years
Typical human lifespan Range discussed as natural for humans.
10 to 15 years
Typical dog lifespan Compared to humans and other long-lived animals.
Almost two centuries
Typical whale and turtle lifespan Compared to humans and dogs.
Approximately 1,000 times
Whale size compared to humans In terms of size and mass, relevant to cancer rates.
40-50 years
Great ape (chimpanzee, orangutan) lifespan Compared to human typical lifespans.
Approximately 7 million years ago
Human divergence from great ape cousins Context for human lifespan expansion.
40%
Neuroscientist median probability for human brain emulation (uploading) From a survey of neuroscientists regarding high-quality preserved brains.
18 to 20 degrees Celsius
Target temperature for induced hypothermia Used in deep hypothermic circulatory arrest for surgery.
45 to 60 minutes
Operating window during induced hypothermia Time available for surgeons to work while circulation is stopped.
90%+
Survival rates after induced hypothermia For patients undergoing deep hypothermic circulatory arrest.
Approximately 50%
Brain shrinkage from cryoprotectants Observed when cryoprotectants are introduced into a patient's brain.
Every 6 weeks or a few months
Replacement rate of proteins in brain cells Illustrates constant material change in the body.
150,000
Number of neurons in a fly brain The entire map of which was recently published and recreated in low fidelity.
2040s or 2050s
Neuroscientist median estimate for mouse brain upload feasibility Estimated with 50% probability.
2125
Neuroscientist median estimate for human brain upload feasibility Estimated with 50% probability.
Approximately 70%
Percentage of terminally ill patients with strong will to live Observed in hospices, indicating a desire to continue living if possible.
1 in 2 children
Child mortality rate centuries ago Died before reaching age 15, highlighting historical improvements in quality of life.