The rival philosophies to Stoicism that you've never heard about (with Greg Lopez)

Jun 18, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Spencer Greenberg speaks with Gregory Lopez, co-author of 'Beyond Stoicism', about deriving modern insights from ancient Greco-Roman philosophies like Stoicism, Epicureanism, Pyrrhonism, and Cyrenaicism. They discuss concepts like eudaimonia and telos, and how these philosophies offer comprehensive life guidance beyond mere "life hacks."

At a Glance
12 Insights
1h 8m Duration
18 Topics
7 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Relevance of Greco-Roman Philosophies Today

Defining Eudaimonia and the Good Life

Teleology: The Concept of a Single Life Purpose

Cyrenaicism: Pursuing Momentary Physical Pleasure

Pyrrhonian Skepticism: Achieving Mental Tranquility through Doubt

Epicureanism: Mental Pleasure by Removing Distress

Stoicism: Living a Virtuous Life and Misconceptions

The First Stoic Discipline: Controlling Aversions and Desires

The Second Stoic Discipline: Intentional Pro-Social Action

The Third Stoic Discipline: Rigorous Moment-to-Moment Practice

Integrating Stoicism with Buddhism: A Personal Approach

Life Philosophies vs. Life Hacks

Value of Pyrrhonian Skepticism: Doubting Impressions

Value of Cyrenaicism: Finding Pleasure in Simple Things

Value of Epicureanism: Importance of Close-Knit Communities

Academic Skepticism and Value of Information

The Role of Eclecticism in Modern Philosophy

Modern Adaptations and Measurement of Stoicism

Eudaimonia

A Greek word often translated as 'happiness' or 'flourishing,' but which ancient philosophers debated extensively. It refers to the ultimate goal or ideal state that everyone desires in their life, with different philosophies cashing it out in various ways.

Telos

The single best thing or final end to pursue in life, from which we get the word 'teleology.' Many Greco-Roman philosophies presumed there was one single value that should be pursued for its own sake, which could also be seen as becoming the best version of a thing.

Ataraxia

The Greek word for mental tranquility, described as the ideal mental state of a soldier going into battle. For Pyrrhonian skeptics, achieving ataraxia by dropping worries about non-apparent things was considered eudaimonia.

Dark Stoicism

A problematic interpretation of Stoicism that focuses solely on building resilience without the corresponding pro-social and ethical development. This can lead to individuals becoming 'resilient assholes' who are immune to the suffering of others.

Dichotomy of Control

A concept derived from Epictetus's phrase 'some things are up to us, and other things are not.' It suggests that one will be crushed by desiring things not up to them, and content by desiring only what is within their control, but this is only the first step of Stoic practice.

Virtue as the Only Good

A core Stoic claim that only one's character and virtues are truly good, while external things like health, wealth, or popularity are 'indifferents.' This is because a good character will always serve one well and benefit others, regardless of external circumstances.

Equipolence

A state achieved through Pyrrhonian skeptical methods, where one no longer knows what is true about a situation or belief. By realizing the difficulty or impossibility of knowing what's truly good or bad, one can let go of worry and achieve mental tranquility.

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What is the core question Greco-Roman philosophies tried to answer?

All Greco-Roman philosophies fundamentally tried to answer the question of 'what is a good life?' and how to achieve it, often centered around the concept of eudaimonia.

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How did Greco-Roman philosophies determine what 'telos' (life's purpose) to pursue?

They primarily used two routes: some appealed to nature, specifically human nature (like Stoicism and Epicureanism), while others appealed to epistemology, focusing on what can actually be known (like Cyrenaicism and Pyrrhonian Skepticism).

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Why is the common understanding of Stoicism often incomplete or misleading?

Many people focus only on Epictetus's 'dichotomy of control' (the first step of Stoicism) as a means to become resilient and bulletproof. This misunderstanding omits the subsequent steps focused on becoming a better person and acting pro-socially, leading to 'dark Stoicism'.

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What is the difference between a 'life philosophy' and 'life hacks'?

A life philosophy provides a complete value system and a North Star to guide one's life, with techniques aligned to that goal. Life hacks, in contrast, often aim to maximize existing desires without questioning or changing one's fundamental values, which can be problematic if those values are unexamined or harmful.

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How can one know if they've chosen the 'wrong' life philosophy?

This is a 'chicken and egg' problem, as judging a philosophy as 'wrong' (e.g., because it causes physical pain) presumes that physical pain is inherently bad, which is itself a value judgment. The process of engaging in deep thought about what is good and why is crucial.

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What value can modern people find in Pyrrhonian Skepticism?

Pyrrhonian Skepticism encourages people to doubt more, both external claims and their own first impressions. It offers methods, like the five modes of doubt, to question beliefs and reach a state of equipolence, leading to mental tranquility by letting go of worries about non-apparent things.

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What can we learn from Cyrenaicism beyond simple pleasure-seeking?

Cyrenaicism, while valuing momentary physical pleasure as the highest good, also emphasizes learning to find pleasure easily and from simple things. This practice helps one remain content and 'wealthy' even when external circumstances are difficult, as exemplified by its founder Aristippus.

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What is a key takeaway from Epicureanism for modern life?

Epicureanism highlights the value of close-knit, selected communities and strong friendships. Epicureans formed intentional communities to lead simple lives, focusing on good conversations and mental pleasures derived from removing mental distress, rather than striving for excessive physical indulgence.

1. Adopt a Life Philosophy

Instead of just using ’life hacks,’ adopt a comprehensive life philosophy that provides a consistent value system and a ‘North Star’ for your life. This helps clarify what you’re truly aiming for and guides your actions in a coherent direction.

2. Question ‘What is Good?’

Engage in the process of sitting down and thinking deeply about what is truly good and why, even if you don’t believe in objective answers. This self-reflection is a useful exercise for clarifying your personal values and life direction.

3. Empirically Study Your Values

Recognize that fundamental values are not rational or irrational, but arational. Discover your true values through empirical self-study, by trying different things and observing how your life develops to see what feels suitable for you.

4. Understand Before Changing

Before manipulating, changing, or rejecting a philosophy, ensure you deeply understand its original meaning and context. This prevents misunderstandings and allows for informed acceptance or rejection based on accurate premises.

5. Transfer Aversions Internally

To control unhealthy emotions (passions) and reduce anxiety, transfer your aversions from external things (like performance outcomes) to internal judgments. Recognize that anxiety stems from valuing things not truly valuable or beyond your complete control, and instead focus on improving your character and mental state.

6. Act Intentionally & Pro-socially

After gaining control over unhealthy emotions, act intentionally rather than reactively, and always act pro-socially. This means striving not to harm others and, as much as possible, gradually expanding your circle of concern to help more people.

7. Solidify Habits Moment-to-Moment

For advanced practitioners, rigorously apply the principles of dampening desires for external things and acting pro-socially in every moment. This discipline is about solidifying the habits built in the first two stages through continuous, moment-to-moment practice.

8. Remove Mental Distress

Pursue mental pleasure, which Epicureans believed is the highest good, by completely removing mental distress. Practice recalling mental pleasures on demand, such as memories of friendship, to achieve a smooth and consistent state of well-being.

9. Cultivate Close-Knit Community

Form close-knit, intentional communities with like-minded people and spend a large amount of time with them. This practice, along with living simply, helps achieve mental pleasure through good conversations and strong friendships.

10. Doubt Non-Apparent Things

To achieve mental tranquility (ataraxia), doubt non-apparent things—ideas and philosophical concepts not directly perceived by your senses—because worrying about them causes mental stress. Practice self-argumentation using modes like disagreement or relativity to realize the difficulty of knowing what’s truly good or bad, then let go of the worry.

11. Follow Common Custom & Sense

When faced with theoretical or abstract concerns, follow common custom, culture, and common sense in your actions. Focus on what is apparent and what others are doing to avoid getting bogged down in unresolvable doubts and to live your life.

12. Pursue Momentary Physical Pleasure

Live moment to moment, trying to grab as much physical pleasure as possible, as Cyrenaics believed physical pleasure is the highest good and most apparent to the mind. Focus on finding physical pleasure easily from simple things, savoring the experience in the moment, rather than expending great effort or reflecting on past pleasures.

If you don't have a port to sail to, no wind is favorable.

Seneca (quoted by Gregory Lopez)

You're truly wealthy when you can still be wealthy when you lose everything in a shipwreck.

Aristippus of Cyrene (paraphrased by Gregory Lopez)

Some things are up to us, and other things are not.

Epictetus (quoted by Gregory Lopez)

Stoic Three Disciplines (Epictetus)

Epictetus (described by Gregory Lopez)
  1. Discipline of Desire: Transfer aversions from external things to internal judgments, and dampen desires for things not 'up to us.' This involves recognizing that anxiety comes from valuing things not truly valuable or controllable.
  2. Discipline of Action: Act intentionally rather than reactively, and act pro-socially. This means trying not to hurt people and gradually expanding one's 'circles of concern' to help others.
  3. Discipline of Ascent: Apply the principles of the first two disciplines (dampening desires, being pro-social and intentional) on a moment-to-moment, rigorous basis. This is for advanced practitioners to solidify habits, even in challenging states like sleep or intoxication.

Pyrrhonian Skepticism: Five Modes of Doubt (Agrippa)

Agrippa (described by Gregory Lopez)
  1. Identify something you are upset about (e.g., a political event).
  2. Apply the mode of 'disagreement' or 'relativity': Consider how different people see the situation, and try to justify your own view.
  3. Question your justification using disagreement or relativity again, realizing that perspectives can change or people will disagree.
  4. Repeat this process until you reach Agrippa's trilemma: either an infinite regress of justifications, an unjustified assumption, or a circular argument.
  5. Accept that it's hard or impossible to know what's truly good or bad about the situation, and let go of the worry, leading to mental tranquility (ataraxia).
maybe a hundred years, a little bit less
Duration Cyrenaicism lasted A relatively short period for a philosophy
three
Number of disciplines in Epictetus's Stoicism program The first discipline is often mistaken for the whole philosophy
five
Number of modes of doubt in Pyrrhonian skepticism (Agrippa) Used to argue with oneself to instill doubt and reach equipolence
within 300 years
Timeframe for the Axial Age Period when many different cultures saw flourishing life philosophies and religions
seven
Number of factors measured by the Stoicism scale Used to broadly measure adherence to Stoic philosophy