When is suffering good? (with Paul Bloom)
Spencer Greenberg speaks with Paul Bloom about the psychology of suffering, motivational pluralism, moral decision-making, and empathy, exploring how chosen suffering can enhance meaning and pleasure, and the diverse motivations driving human behavior.
Deep Dive Analysis
15 Topic Outline
The Upsides of Chosen Suffering
Exploring BDSM and the Nature of Enjoying Suffering
Suffering as a Path to Mastery and Focus
The Role of Contrast in Enhancing Pleasure
Goal Achievement vs. Goal Pursuit in Meaningful Activities
Motivational Pluralism: Diverse Human Appetites and Values
Debunking the 'Everything is Selfish' Argument
Habits vs. Deliberate Choices in Relationships
The Psychology of Coercion through Positive Incentives
Shifting Moral Judgments from Actions to Character
Sociopathy, Fear, and the Blunting of Emotions
Distinguishing Between Compassion and Empathy
Can Sociopaths Be Ethical? The Role of Ideology and Self-Interest
Narcissists vs. Sociopaths and Their Societal Roles
Evolutionary Advantages of Personality Traits and Optimal Levels
7 Key Concepts
Chosen Suffering
This refers to suffering that individuals actively seek out, such as watching a horror movie, eating spicy food, or engaging in extreme athleticism. Unlike unchosen suffering, chosen suffering can enhance pleasure through contrast or provide a sense of meaning and accomplishment.
Benign Masochism
A term coined by Paul Rosen, this concept describes chosen suffering that is not physically damaging but rather focuses on contrast, escape from self, and mastery. It highlights activities like hot baths or intense physical exertion that provide benefits without severe harm.
Motivational Pluralism
This idea posits that humans are driven by a variety of intrinsic appetites and values, not just a single one. People seek pleasure, meaning, morality, truth, and beauty, and the challenge in life is often finding the right balance among these diverse motivations.
Wanting vs. Liking
A neuroscience distinction indicating that the brain's 'wanting' (desire) and 'liking' (pleasure) systems can operate independently. For example, an addict might strongly 'want' a drug without necessarily 'liking' the experience it provides, highlighting that desire doesn't always equate to pleasure.
Cognitive Empathy
This refers to the ability to understand the mental states of others, such as recognizing if someone is happy, angry, or anxious. It involves intellectual comprehension of another's perspective or feelings without necessarily experiencing those emotions oneself.
Emotional Empathy
This is the experience of feeling what another person feels, essentially putting oneself in their shoes and experiencing their emotions alongside them. For example, if a friend is anxious, emotional empathy would mean feeling anxious too.
Compassion
Distinct from emotional empathy, compassion is the feeling of caring about another person and wanting to alleviate their suffering. When a friend is anxious, compassion would lead to a desire to help and calm them, rather than becoming anxious oneself.
11 Questions Answered
Chosen suffering can enhance pleasure through contrast (e.g., hot bath then cold lake) and provide a sense of meaning and accomplishment, as seen in challenging pursuits like ultra-running or martial arts.
Reasons vary, but can include seeking an escape from the self, achieving a state of intense focus, experiencing a contrast effect that heightens pleasure, or demonstrating mastery and accomplishment.
Many forms of pleasure, such as enjoying spicy food or the relief after a cold, are intensified by a preceding experience of discomfort or pain, suggesting that contrast is often essential for heightened enjoyment.
Motivational pluralism is the idea that humans are driven by multiple intrinsic appetites like pleasure, meaning, morality, truth, and beauty, rather than a single overarching goal. Life's struggle often involves balancing these diverse desires.
No, arguing that all actions are selfish because they are 'wanted' is a semantic game that misrepresents the concept of selfishness. People genuinely desire the well-being of loved ones and pursue moral goals for their own sake, not just for personal pleasure or evolutionary advantage.
Habits can lead to actions that circumvent deliberate processes, causing misunderstandings in relationships. Forgetting a birthday or checking a phone during dinner might be due to automatic behavior rather than a lack of care, though a partner's disapproval can serve as a motivator for change.
Yes, offering an extremely large sum of money can be coercive if it compels someone to act against their better interests, violate their principles, or cause needless suffering, even if the action isn't strictly illegal or immoral.
People often judge the character of an individual based on their actions, especially for behaviors that reveal an 'awful' inner disposition. For example, torturing an animal is often seen as more indicative of bad character than certain crimes against people, because it's harder for most to imagine doing.
Empathy involves either understanding another's mental state (cognitive empathy) or feeling their emotions yourself (emotional empathy). Compassion, however, is caring about another person and wanting to alleviate their suffering, without necessarily experiencing their emotions directly.
Yes, sociopaths can behave ethically, not typically due to innate moral emotions, but through self-interest (e.g., avoiding punishment) or by adopting a strong ideology (e.g., religious beliefs or effective altruism) that guides their actions towards perceived good outcomes.
While both may manipulate and have lower empathy, narcissists are primarily driven by a need for admiration and fear disapproval, making them less likely to openly admit to traits like narcissism. Sociopaths, often characterized by low fear and remorse, are more open about their nature and may be overrepresented in prisons, while narcissists can achieve high levels of success.
22 Actionable Insights
1. Embrace Motivational Pluralism
Acknowledge that humans are driven by a diverse set of intrinsic values (e.g., pleasure, meaning, morality, truth, beauty) rather than a single one. Strive to find a healthy balance among these multiple appetites in life.
2. Seek Chosen Suffering
Intentionally seek out certain forms of suffering (e.g., horror movies, spicy food, challenging physical activities) as it can enhance pleasure through contrast and imbue life with greater meaning.
3. Engage in Immersive Activities
Participate in activities that demand intense focus, like martial arts or bouldering, to achieve a state of immersion and temporary escape from self-preoccupation, which can be powerful and clarifying.
4. Practice Gratitude via Imagined Loss
To deepen gratitude, briefly imagine losing something you value, then appreciate its presence. Exercise caution, as this technique can be too intense or upsetting for some individuals.
5. Seek Challenging Goals
Choose pursuits that inherently involve difficulty and the possibility of failure, as the struggle and challenge are what make these activities meaningful and satisfying, rather than easy victories.
6. Value Goal Pursuit and Balance
Recognize that the process of pursuing a goal, including struggle and occasional failure, is often more satisfying than the achievement itself. Maintain a balance between striving and occasional success to sustain motivation.
7. Prioritize Compassion Over Empathy
Cultivate compassion (caring about others’ welfare and wanting to help) rather than emotional empathy (feeling what others feel), as empathy can sometimes be unhelpful while compassion leads to more effective support.
8. Improve Relationships with Psychology
Recognize that many relationship problems stem from misunderstandings of psychological processes, such as automatic habits (e.g., checking a phone) being misinterpreted as a lack of care, rather than a deliberate choice.
9. Apply “What If You Had To?”
When facing a task you feel unable to do, use the thought experiment: “What if you had to do it?” This reframing can reveal hidden strategies and motivations by forcing your brain to consider actions it would take under extreme necessity.
10. Reject Semantic Selfishness
Be wary of arguments that claim all actions are ultimately selfish because they are “what you want to do”; recognize that genuine altruism and care for others can be intrinsic motivations, not just a pursuit of personal pleasure or avoidance of guilt.
11. Distinguish Intrinsic from Instrumental Values
Reflect on your motivations to discern whether you value something for its own sake (intrinsic value) or as a means to achieve something else (instrumental value), recognizing that morality can be an intrinsic value.
12. Differentiate Wanting from Liking
Understand that “wanting” (desire) and “liking” (pleasure) are distinct psychological processes; something can be strongly wanted (e.g., an addictive drug) without being genuinely liked or pleasurable.
13. Reframe Suffering as Progress
Adopt a mindset where suffering during challenging endeavors (e.g., ultra-running) is reframed as a metric of performance, indicating you are doing a better job and pushing your limits.
14. Embrace Contrast for Pleasure
Understand that intense pleasure often requires a preceding experience of non-pleasure or mild suffering; embrace this contrast (e.g., hot sauna followed by a cold lake) to heighten the positive experience.
15. Avoid “Bad Flow States”
Be wary of activities (like social media or overly gamified tasks) that provide constant, immediate, but ultimately unsatisfying rewards, as they can lead to a “bad flow state” that feels like a waste of time upon reflection.
16. Assess Character in Moral Judgments
When making moral judgments, consider the underlying character of the person rather than solely focusing on the action itself, as certain behaviors (e.g., animal cruelty) can reveal deep character flaws.
17. Recognize Subtle Coercion
Be aware that coercion can extend beyond direct force, encompassing situations where extreme incentives or offers (especially those causing needless suffering or violating personal values) can make someone feel they have no real choice.
18. Be Aware of Signaling in Criticism
Recognize that public criticism or disapproval often serves as a signal of one’s own virtue or non-involvement in the criticized behavior, particularly for transgressions where one might otherwise be suspected.
19. Understand Costly Signals
Be aware that strongly attacking others for a transgression can serve as a “costly signal” of your own innocence, as it demonstrates a commitment against the behavior that would be difficult for a guilty person to maintain.
20. Understand Sociopaths’ Ethical Drivers
Recognize that sociopaths, lacking typical moral emotions, can still behave ethically if guided by strong ideologies (e.g., religious beliefs, effective altruism) or self-interest, but exercise caution as their motivations differ from neurotypical individuals.
21. Recognize Societal Vulnerabilities
Understand that many societal protections and verification systems (e.g., checking references, documents) are designed for individuals with a conscience and are highly ineffective against those who are remorseless and willing to lie or forge without hesitation.
22. Optimize Trait Levels
Recognize that many personality traits (e.g., callousness, anxiety) exist on a continuum, and there’s an optimal level for each that depends on context; too much or too little of a trait can be disadvantageous.
4 Key Quotes
unchosen suffering, getting assaulted, having your child die, getting horribly ill, is typically a bad thing... My interest is in chosen suffering, is in suffering we seek out. And I think the right sort of chosen suffering could be wonderful.
Paul Bloom
Suffering is glorious.
Spencer Greenberg (quoting an ultra runner)
If you're worried that you're a psychopath, you're not a psychopath.
Paul Bloom (quoting John Ronson)
We never talk about people who have too little anxiety, because they end up in morgues or prisons.
Paul Bloom (quoting Nessie)