How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana, Intercom, Intuit)

Jul 9, 2023 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Lenny interviews Paige Costello, Product Lead at Asana, about building trust, coaching PMs, and Asana's product development process. They discuss strategies for leadership, effective feedback, and leveraging AI, along with personal career advice and common PM pitfalls.

At a Glance
27 Insights
1h 3m Duration
15 Topics
5 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Paige Costello's Role and Responsibilities at Asana

Evolution of Asana's Product Development Process

Asana's Strategic Planning Frequency and Horizons

Applying the Double Diamond Process at Asana

Asana's Office-Centric Hybrid Work Model

Building Trust and Winning Over Skeptics

Communicating with Confidence and Openness

The Three E's Framework for Career Growth

Advice for Early-Career Product Managers

Asana's Approach to AI Integration

Lessons on Feedback from Intuit's Training

Common Challenges for New Product Managers

Paige's Skill-Focused Career Philosophy

Optimizing Product Development Reviews and Approvals

Favorite Asana Pro Tip for Meetings

Double Diamond Process

This framework involves alternating between 'going broad' (diverging) and 'going narrow' (converging) at different stages of product development. It forces teams to systematically explore customer problems and potential solutions, moving from broad inquiry to focused decision-making, ensuring rigor and curiosity.

Trust Equation

A model stating that trust equals credibility plus reliability plus authenticity, all divided by the perception of self-interest. To build trust, one must demonstrate expertise, consistently deliver, be genuine, and ensure others perceive actions as being for the collective good, not just personal gain.

Three E's Framework

A model for career growth encompassing Experience, Exposure, and Education. While many focus on direct experience or formal education, 'exposure' emphasizes learning by observing and analyzing situations where one is not in the driver's seat, allowing for broader and faster growth.

Above/Below the Line

A concept from conscious leadership training where 'above the line' means being committed to learning, open, curious, and playful, while 'below the line' means being committed to winning, being right, and seeing things as black and white. Recognizing one's own and others' 'line' helps foster more productive and open conversations.

Situation-Behavior-Impact Feedback

A structured method for delivering feedback by describing a specific 'situation' (e.g., a meeting time), the observable 'behavior' (e.g., interrupting), and the 'impact' it had on you (e.g., 'made me feel...'). This format ensures feedback is subjective, true to the giver's experience, and focuses on impact rather than judgment, making it easier to internalize and act upon.

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How does Asana structure its product organization?

Asana organizes its R&D into a nested structure of pillars, areas within those pillars, and then working teams. Each area has a specific target customer and problem space, with clear metrics defined at the R&D, pillar, area, and team levels to measure success.

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How has Asana's product planning evolved?

Asana shifted from primarily annual planning to planning every six months for a rolling 12-month horizon, allowing for higher confidence in the immediate half and more frequent reflection and pivots. The focus also moved from feature-based roadmaps to problem-focused roadmaps driven by business growth.

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What is Asana's approach to hybrid work?

Asana adopted an office-centric hybrid format, requiring employees to be in the office on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, with Wednesday and Friday being work-from-home days. This structure was designed from the start to leverage the benefits of in-person collaboration and quick movement.

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How can one garner trust and win over skeptics, especially when younger or less experienced?

The key is to bring insight by deeply knowing the customer, market, competitors, numbers, and product. By confidently and clearly sharing valuable insights derived from firsthand observation and research, one can build credibility and demonstrate value without needing to pretend to have more experience.

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How can product managers communicate with more confidence?

True confidence is conveyed by being brave enough to ask questions, admit 'I don't know,' and be vulnerable, rather than always being assertive. Maintaining eye contact, positive body language, being present in meetings, and actively welcoming and engaging with others also project confidence.

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What holds back new product managers from being successful?

New PMs are often held back by the illusion that they must be all-knowing experts, leading to an advocacy mindset instead of inquiry. This can result in less collaborative discovery, reduced information flow, and a reluctance to seek or genuinely accept feedback, hindering their growth and the quality of their work.

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What are the key elements to assess career satisfaction and growth?

Paige assesses her career path by evaluating her learning curve (is it steep enough?), the environment (does it positively impact growth and provide the right ingredients?), and the problem being solved (is it fun and interesting, fostering curiosity?).

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How does Asana integrate AI into its product development?

Asana initially staffed a dedicated team to rapidly prototype and discover possibilities with LLMs, often skipping traditional process steps. Once promising hypotheses emerged, the ownership and further development of these AI-driven experiences were transferred to existing teams with expertise in the relevant customer problems.

1. Bring the Insight

To gain trust and convince skeptics, especially when younger or less experienced, focus on bringing deep insight by thoroughly knowing your customer, market, competitors, numbers, and product. This creates credibility and makes people curious and trusting.

2. Build Credibility & Reliability

Build trust by focusing on credibility (bringing insight), reliability (your say-do ratio), and authenticity (being vulnerable). Ensure people perceive you as not acting out of self-interest, as this can significantly impact trust.

3. Challenge Scarcity: “Opposite True?”

When feeling overwhelmed or constrained by a scarcity mindset, ask yourself, “How might the opposite be true?” This question can help break mental frames, create alternative options, and reveal different paths, reducing stress and opening possibilities.

4. Operate Above the Line

Be mindful of your headspace: operate “above the line” by being committed to learning, open, curious, and playful. Avoid operating “below the line,” which is characterized by being committed to winning, being right, and seeing things as black and white.

5. Utilize Experience, Exposure, Education

Grow your career purposefully by focusing on three “E’s”: gaining direct Experience, seeking Exposure (observing and evaluating from the passenger seat), and pursuing Education (reading, mentors, coaches). Exposure is particularly important for rapid, multi-directional growth.

6. Answer the Unasked Question

In meetings or conversations, always answer the question that should have been asked, not just the one posed. This demonstrates a higher strategic altitude, covers the bigger picture, and considers alternatives the questioner might have missed.

7. Give Effective Feedback

When giving feedback, use the “Situation-Behavior-Impact” framework: describe the specific situation, the observed behavior, and the subjective impact it had on you. This makes feedback clear, actionable, and less about being “right,” focusing instead on shared experience.

8. Don’t Self-Select Out

Especially early in your career, don’t self-select out of opportunities by thinking you lack experience or aren’t “enough” for a role. Push yourself to apply and try new things, even if you feel unprepared.

9. Think Big, Ship Small

For product development, always “think big, ship small.” Envision the grand vision but break it down into the smallest possible, shippable increments to avoid getting too incremental or missing the bigger picture.

10. Assess Career Path

Evaluate your career path by asking three questions: Is your learning curve steep enough? Is your environment positively impacting your growth and ability to make an impact? Is the problem your product solves fun and interesting to you?

11. Prioritize Skills & Experiences

When planning your career, focus on acquiring desired skills and experiences rather than fixed roles or companies. This approach helps you make the most of your current career path and adapt to new opportunities.

12. Gain Customer Insight Quickly

When starting a new role, become best friends with a researcher and spend time directly watching customers use the product firsthand. This helps you quickly understand customer needs, problems, and product usage, preventing an “inside-out” perspective.

13. Communicate with Open Confidence

Convey confidence by being brave and courageous in small moments, showing up and speaking even before you’re fully ready, and being vulnerable. True confidence is also shown by asking questions, admitting “I don’t know,” and maintaining good body language (eye contact, presence in meetings).

14. Lead & Teach by Example

Lead and teach by example because repetition helps people remember and internalize lessons more effectively. Model the behaviors and meeting styles you want your team to adopt, creating the experience you hope they’re creating.

15. Avoid “All-Knowing Expert” Trap

New Product Managers should avoid the illusion of needing to be all-knowing and super confident, which leads to advocacy instead of inquiry. Instead, embrace curiosity and openness to collaboration, as trying to be the sole expert can hinder learning and feedback.

16. Focus on Work Outcomes

Instead of constantly seeking promotion, focus on being present in your job, having fun, and solving problems. Good outcomes will naturally lead to recognition and advocacy from others, making promotion a consequence rather than a direct pursuit.

17. Give Guidance, Not Micromanagement

As a manager, focus on giving guidance and direction that teaches repeatable patterns rather than precise, one-time instructions. This empowers your team and avoids micromanagement.

18. Police Your Own Input

In meetings, especially as a leader, police your own input by writing down what you want to say on post-its and waiting to see if someone else says it first. Only speak if your point is still valuable by the end of the meeting, as others may not challenge you directly.

19. Be Real, Even Optimistic

While optimism is good, be authentic and “real” with your team about challenges, incomplete plans, or areas of uncertainty. This builds trust and ensures everyone has a balanced perspective of the situation.

20. Know Your Chronotype

Understand your personal chronotype (e.g., morning person) and proactively block out time during your peak mental hours for deep work. This ensures you have dedicated headspace for your hardest tasks.

21. Rolling 12-Month Planning Cycle

Adopt a rolling 12-month planning cycle, revisiting and refining the plan every six months. This allows for higher confidence in the near term, better alignment with go-to-market, and quicker pivots based on new opportunities or progress.

22. Nested Product Strategy Metrics

Organize product strategy with a nested structure: R&D metrics, pillar metrics, area metrics, and then one or two key metrics at the team level. This provides clarity and accountability across different organizational altitudes.

23. Use Double Diamond Process

Implement the Double Diamond process (broaden, narrow, broaden, narrow) for product development. This systematic approach ensures rigorous customer selection, problem definition, and solution exploration, forcing teams to move beyond opinion-driven decisions.

24. Optimize Meetings & Approvals

To improve execution pace and quality, limit meeting attendance (e.g., no more than 10 people) and streamline approvals. Assign a single, clear approver for each piece of work and limit the number of formal reviews (e.g., no more than three).

25. Hybrid Office-Centric Work Model

Consider an office-centric hybrid work model (e.g., 3 days in office, 2 days remote) to leverage the benefits of in-person collaboration and impromptu strategy discussions, while retaining focused remote workdays. Actively encourage teams to re-engage with office practices like whiteboarding.

26. Staff Dedicated AI Prototyping

For exploring new technologies like LLMs, staff a dedicated team to prototype quickly and discover possibilities outside of typical development norms. This allows for rapid validation of hypotheses and identification of unexpected opportunities before full integration into product roadmaps.

27. Run Meetings with Asana

Use Asana to run all your meetings by assigning pre-reads with due dates using the multi-assign feature in subtasks. Take notes live in a task during the meeting, then highlight and convert action items into subtasks to ensure nothing is lost.

The thing I would say is bring the insight. Know thy customer, know thy market, know thy competitors, know thy numbers, know thy product.

Paige Costello

Trust is equal to credibility plus reliability plus authenticity divided by or over perception of self-interest.

Paige Costello

Always answer the question that they should have asked.

Paige Costello

Think big, ship small.

Paige Costello

How might the opposite be true?

Paige Costello

Don't let the sound of your wheels drive you crazy.

Paige Costello

Passions are made, not found.

Paige Costello

Asana's Double Diamond Process (Review Inflection Points)

Paige Costello
  1. Kickoff: Go broad to explore customer needs and problems.
  2. Customer and Direction Selection: Narrow down to a target customer and a broad path for solving their problem.
  3. Design Concept Review: Go broad again to explore different solution concepts within the chosen path.
  4. Product Spec: Narrow down to a specific solution, detailing the product specifications.
  5. Full Experience Review / Design Crit: Review the end-to-end user experience and design.
  6. Launch Review: Conduct a formal check on metrics, identify fast-follows, and ensure readiness for launch, often after internal dogfooding.

Giving Effective Feedback (Situation-Behavior-Impact)

Paige Costello
  1. Describe the Situation: Clearly state the specific context or event (e.g., 'on Tuesday in that meeting at three o'clock').
  2. Describe the Behavior: Detail the observable action or statement made (e.g., 'you interrupted me while I was saying this thing').
  3. Explain the Impact: Share how that behavior affected you personally (e.g., 'made me feel like you weren't listening to me').

Paige's Asana Meeting Management Pro Tip

Paige Costello
  1. Use Asana to run all meetings, starting with a task for the meeting itself.
  2. Assign pre-reads using the multi-assign feature in subtasks, setting a clear due date for each.
  3. Take notes live within the meeting task during the discussion.
  4. Highlight relevant parts of the live notes and convert them directly into subtasks to capture all action items.
rolling 12 months
Product planning time horizon Asana revisits its product plan every six months, but plans for the next 12 months.
3 days
Office work days per week Asana employees are in the office Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.
2 days
Work from home days per week Asana employees primarily work from home on Wednesday and Friday.
70% finished
Completeness of clarity pillar brief Paige's assessment of the clarity pillar brief when presented early to area leads, indicating 30% was missing or incorrect.
10 people
Maximum number of people in a meeting If a meeting has more than 10 people, the host is asked to remove others and write better decision notes.