How to build a powerful marketing machine | Emily Kramer (Asana, Carta, MKT1)
Guest Emily Kramer, a seasoned marketing leader from Asana and Carta, shares concrete advice for founders on building marketing teams. She introduces the "fuel and engine" framework for marketing, details archetypes of marketers (like "pie-shaped" generalists), and outlines strategies for effective product-marketing collaboration and hiring.
Deep Dive Analysis
20 Topic Outline
Introduction to Fuel and Engine Marketing Framework
Emily Kramer's Career and MKT1 Overview
Common Mistakes in Marketing Hiring for Founders
Detailed Explanation of Fuel and Engine in Marketing
Archetypes of Marketing Roles: Content, Growth, Product Marketing
Hiring Generalists vs. Specialists: The Pie-Shaped Marketer
Key Qualities to Look for in a First Product Marketing Hire
Optimal Timing for Hiring the First Marketing Person
The Role of Brand Marketing in B2B Companies
Marketing Strategies for Product-Led Growth (PLG) Startups
Navigating Product and Marketing Ownership in PLG
Strategies for Effective Product and Marketing Collaboration
The GACC Marketing Brief Framework for Project Planning
Indicators of an Effective Marketing Team
Advice for Angel Investors with Functional Expertise
Lightning Round: Recommended Books
Lightning Round: Favorite Podcasts
Lightning Round: Favorite Movie or TV Show
Lightning Round: Favorite Interview Questions
Lightning Round: Respected Industry Thought Leaders
5 Key Concepts
Fuel and Engine Marketing Framework
This framework breaks marketing into two core components: 'fuel' encompasses all content, words, design, and value-adding creations, while 'engine' refers to how that content is distributed to the right people, including tracking and operations. The framework helps identify whether a company's biggest growth challenge is creating valuable content or effectively distributing it.
Pie-Shaped Marketers
A concept for hiring generalists in early-stage marketing, where a 'pie-shaped' marketer is an expert in one of three core areas (product marketing, content marketing, or growth marketing), proficient in another, and capable of setting strategy and hiring contractors across all areas. This contrasts with a 'T-shaped' person who has one deep skill.
Product-Led Growth (PLG) as a Misnomer
Emily Kramer suggests that PLG is often misunderstood as solely product-driven, but it actually implies 'product plus marketing' rather than 'not as much sales.' It means a greater reliance on marketing to communicate with customers and prospects through one-to-many channels, with the product itself acting as a channel for communication.
Areas of Responsibility (AORs)
A system used at Asana to clearly define who is the Directly Responsible Individual (DRI) for specific tasks or initiatives, regardless of their job title. This system helps teams know exactly who to go to for decisions or information, fostering clear ownership and reducing confusion in cross-functional collaboration.
GACC Marketing Brief
A framework for planning marketing projects, standing for Goals, Audience, Creative/Unique Angle, Channels, and Stakeholders. It is a structured brief to be completed before starting any major marketing work, ensuring early alignment on objectives, target audience, messaging, distribution, and key collaborators.
7 Questions Answered
Founders often hire specialists who don't cover the most critical needs, or they prioritize industry experience over business model experience, which is more crucial for dictating marketing activities. They also frequently hire senior people from large companies who aren't suited for building a function from scratch.
To assess if you need more 'fuel' (content, messaging), ask if you have top-performing content, clear positioning, or answers to 'who is your product for and why is it better?' If you have content but no effective distribution or tracking, you likely need more 'engine.'
Startups should generally hire a 'pie-shaped' generalist marketer who is an expert in one core area (product marketing, content, or growth) and proficient in another, while also being able to set strategy and manage contractors across all marketing functions.
It's usually best at the Series A stage, or sometimes at seed if it's a product-led growth model. The company should have some semblance of product-market fit and successful customers, as marketing excels at accelerating growth and scaling, not at initial bespoke discovery.
In B2B, brand marketing often combines the positioning and storytelling aspects typically owned by product marketing with design influence. A dedicated brand person might emerge on larger teams to ensure consistent messaging, design, and lead large brand initiatives.
An ineffective marketing team often engages in 'splattergy' (busy work without impact), lacks clear impact-focused goals (instead having activity goals like 'write 10 blog posts'), and fails to track conversion rates across the entire funnel, focusing only on raw numbers.
Leverage your functional expertise by being clear about your specific value-add (e.g., helping with marketing, hiring). This niche expertise makes you a sought-after investor for founders and helps other investors bring you into deals. Consistently deliver on your promised value-add.
28 Actionable Insights
1. Simplify Marketing to Fuel & Engine
When thinking about marketing, simplify it to two core components: ‘fuel’ (content, words, design, value-adding things) and ’engine’ (how you distribute it to the right people and track it). This helps clarify marketing’s purpose.
2. Diagnose Marketing Growth Constraint
Before making marketing decisions, identify whether your biggest growth challenge is on the ‘fuel’ side (creating valuable content) or the ’engine’ side (distributing that content effectively).
3. Prioritize Fuel Before Engine
Ensure you have valuable ‘fuel’ (content, messaging) before investing heavily in an ’engine’ (distribution channels), as an engine without fuel will not be effective. Conversely, if you have fuel, ensure you’re actively distributing it.
4. Set Impact Goals, Not Activity Goals
Marketing teams should set impact-focused goals (e.g., traffic, conversion rates, sign-ups) rather than mere activity goals (e.g., number of blog posts), to ensure efforts contribute to tangible growth.
5. Track Full-Funnel Conversion Rates
Effective marketing teams track full-funnel metrics, focusing not just on raw numbers (e.g., sign-ups) but also on maintaining or improving conversion rates to subsequent stages (e.g., activated users) to ensure quality and impact across the entire funnel.
6. Marketing Should Own Website & Web Conversion
Marketing should typically own the website and web conversion, as they are responsible for frequent updates and top-of-funnel messaging; ensure the website is built on an easily editable CMS (e.g., Webflow) and not deeply integrated into the product’s codebase.
7. Create Clear DRIs (Areas of Responsibility)
Establish a clear list of Directly Responsible Individuals (DRIs) for specific tasks and areas of responsibility, distinct from job titles, to ensure everyone knows who owns what and who to consult for efficient cross-functional collaboration.
8. Use GACCS Marketing Brief
Before any major marketing project, create a GACCS brief outlining Goals, Audience, Creative/Unique Angle, Channels (distribution), and Stakeholders (DRIs, contributors) to align teams and get early buy-in, saving significant time.
9. Establish Strong Planning Processes
A robust company-wide planning process is crucial for effective cross-functional collaboration, especially between product and marketing teams, including practices like “Roadmap Week” for open discussions.
10. Foster Two-Way Communication
Ensure product teams proactively loop in marketing on roadmap plans, launches, and cross-functional initiatives, and marketers improve internal communication by educating other teams, demystifying jargon, and tailoring information.
11. Respect Team Skill Sets
Foster mutual respect for each team’s unique skill sets (e.g., product with engineers, marketing with storytelling) and empower them to lead in their areas of expertise to build trust and efficiency.
12. Hire “Pie-Shaped” Marketers
Seek marketers who are expert in one area (product, content, or growth marketing), proficient in a second, and capable of setting strategy and hiring contractors across all marketing functions.
13. Prioritize Product Marketer with Growth Understanding
The most common first marketing hire should be a Product Marketer who also understands growth marketing channels and possesses strong writing skills (both short and long-form), as they often serve as the primary copywriter.
14. Hire Marketers by Business Model
When hiring marketers, prioritize candidates with experience in your specific business model (e.g., top-down sales, PLG) over those with industry or audience-specific experience, as business model dictates marketing activities significantly.
15. Hire Generalists, Use Contractors for Specialists
For your first few marketing hires, prioritize generalists who can cover multiple areas. Leverage specialist contractors (e.g., SEO, marketing ops, writers) for specific, deep expertise.
16. Hire First Marketer Post-PMF
Hire your first marketer once you have a semblance of product-market fit and some successful customers, as marketing excels at accelerating growth at scale, not bespoke early discovery. Avoid premature hires if the product or business model is too undefined.
17. Avoid Overly Senior BigCo Hires
Do not hire marketers who have only worked at large public companies for early-stage startups, as their experience is often too specialized and lacks the foundational, scrappy building required.
18. Hire Strategic Doers
Your first marketer must be both strategic in setting direction and scrappy enough to execute all tasks themselves, as they will be responsible for everything initially. Seek candidates with early-stage exposure and a high-quality bar.
19. Assess Marketer Writing Skills
When hiring marketers, specifically test their ability to write effectively in both short-form and long-form contexts.
20. Define Clear Handoffs & Overlap
Clearly define ownership and handoff points between marketing and product, especially in gray areas like sign-up flows or forms, focusing on collaborative goals rather than arguments over turf.
21. Focus on Impact & Big Bets
High-performing marketing teams are impact-focused, clearly articulating core growth drivers, identifying big bets for step-change growth, and addressing foundational issues that hinder speed. Marketing leaders must define these “big bets.”
22. Pair Creative Leads with Analytical Partners
If a marketing team lead is highly creative or brand-focused, ensure they are paired with someone skilled in project management and analytical impact to effectively manage diverse projects and measure results.
23. Leverage Functional Expertise as Investor
Aspiring angel investors should leverage their specific functional expertise (e.g., marketing, product) to provide unique value to founders, as there’s a high demand for such specialized support.
24. Clearly Articulate Investor Value-Add
As an angel investor, clearly articulate your specific value-add to founders (e.g., helping build marketing, hiring, strategy) to differentiate yourself and attract deals. “Product market” your unique offering.
25. Deliver on Stated Investor Value
As an investor, consistently deliver on the specific value you promised (e.g., marketing hiring, strategy) so founders know when and how to engage you, building a strong reputation for helpfulness by going deep in your area of expertise.
26. Refer Top Candidates as Investor
Referring strong candidates who get hired is one of the most valuable ways an investor can help a startup, building lasting goodwill and a strong reputation.
27. Master Product Positioning Basics
Ensure you can clearly articulate what your product is, why it’s better, and who it’s for; this fundamental positioning should be evident on your website’s homepage and is a key interview question.
28. Practice Simple Communication
To improve communication skills, practice explaining a complex topic you know well to others as simply as possible.
6 Key Quotes
Forget the product marketing, content marketing, partner, demand gen, growth, like forget all of it and just think of marketing as you need a fuel and you need an engine.
Emily Kramer
The business model really dictates what marketing does in a big way.
Emily Kramer
Product-led growth really means not as much sales, which means product plus marketing.
Emily Kramer
You shouldn't have activity goals, you should have impact goals.
Emily Kramer
There is a big need for investors that have functional expertise.
Emily Kramer
The best marketing teams are like impact focus, they can tell you of all the things they're doing, what are the core things that are sort of driving that linear growth or just like keeping the lights on.
Emily Kramer
2 Protocols
Hiring a Pie-Shaped Marketer
Emily Kramer- Determine if your biggest challenge is 'fuel' (content creation) or 'engine' (distribution).
- Identify which of the three typical sub-functions (content/community, growth/demand gen, product marketing) is most needed.
- Look for a generalist who is an expert in one of these three areas and proficient in another (a 'pie-shaped' marketer).
- Ensure they can set strategy across all marketing and know how to hire contractors.
- Test for strong writing ability, as they will be the primary copywriter for a long time.
- Seek someone who has worked on a team early enough not to be siloed and has seen what 'great' marketing looks like.
- Avoid hiring someone too senior who has only worked at large public companies, as they may lack the foundational building and 'doer' experience needed for a startup.
Effective Product and Marketing Collaboration
Emily Kramer- Establish Clear Ownership: Create a list of 'Areas of Responsibility' (AORs) defining who is the Directly Responsible Individual (DRI) for each task or initiative, beyond job titles.
- Conduct Roadmap Week: Hold open, cross-functional planning meetings before each quarter to discuss team plans and major decisions, allowing others to be looped in and provide input.
- Implement Clear Review Processes: Define how work is reviewed and approved across teams.
- Use the GACC Marketing Brief: Before starting any major marketing project, complete a brief outlining Goals, Audience, Creative/Unique Angle, Channels, and Stakeholders to get early buy-in and alignment.
- Foster Mutual Respect: Recognize and value each team's distinct skill sets and allow them to excel in their areas of expertise.
- Communicate at the Right Level: Marketers should educate internal teams about what marketing does, avoiding jargon and tailoring information to the appropriate level for internal stakeholders.