How to fire people with grace, work through fear, and nurture innovation | Matt Mochary (CEO coach)

Nov 10, 2022 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Matt Mashari, an executive coach for top tech leaders, shares insights on overcoming fear and anger, mastering humane layoffs, fostering innovation within large companies, and optimizing personal energy through audits. He emphasizes tactical approaches to leadership and personal effectiveness.

At a Glance
24 Insights
1h 11m Duration
10 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Impact of Layoff Communication on Employee Reaction

Matt Mochary's Background and Coaching Evolution

Common Struggles of Successful Founders: Dealing with Fear

Understanding and Managing Anger as a Cover Emotion

The Importance of Learning to Fire People Humanely

Tactical Approaches to Making People Feel Heard

The 'Top Goal' Concept and Accountability Partners

Executing Humane Mass Layoffs and Their Surprising Benefits

Strategies for Innovating Within Large Companies

Conducting an Energy Audit to Optimize Daily Activities

Fear as a Derailer

When individuals are in a state of fear, their brains tend to make exaggerated predictions, leading to poor advice and preventing them from taking necessary, often difficult, actions. Overcoming this involves recognizing the fear and acting contrary to its advice, often with external validation.

Anger as a Cover Emotion

Anger is not a primary emotion but rather a defense mechanism that masks underlying pain. When pain is felt, the brain externalizes it as anger, which can damage relationships. The true solution is to allow oneself to feel the pain directly, preventing its outward projection.

Separate Decision from Implementation

This framework, shared by Wei Deng, involves first making a decision based on what the primary stakeholder (e.g., customer) would want, without emotional bias. Separately, consider the implementation, focusing on how to mitigate any potential harm or negative impact on individuals involved.

Top Goal

This concept emphasizes dedicating a specific block of time daily (e.g., 30 minutes to 2 hours) to work solely on one's highest priority. This practice prevents one's day from being consumed by reactive tasks and others' requests, leading to significant progress on personal or professional objectives.

Energy Audit

A process of reviewing one's calendar for two representative weeks, marking each hour's activities as either energy-giving (green) or energy-draining (red). The goal is to identify patterns in energy-draining tasks and then eliminate, delegate, or refine them to free up time for activities in one's 'zone of genius'.

Zone of Genius

This is the area where an individual performs tasks they are uniquely skilled at and deeply love, to the extent that time and space seem to disappear. Activities in this zone are often undervalued by the individual because they come so easily, but they are crucial for creating massive value and personal fulfillment.

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What are the most common areas where even very successful founders struggle?

Many successful founders primarily struggle with fear, which can lead their minds to make exaggerated predictions and prevent them from taking difficult but necessary actions, often against their own best interests.

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How can you address people to minimize defensiveness when giving feedback?

To minimize defensiveness, use an 'I statement' that describes your perception without judgment, such as 'I perceive you to be in anger,' allowing the person to acknowledge their emotion without feeling accused.

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How can leaders make people feel truly heard?

To make people feel truly heard, actively listen and repeat back what you understood them to say. For deeper connection, reflect back what you imagine are their unspoken, often stronger, thoughts and feelings, then share your own perspective.

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How can a leader get better at the skill of firing people humanely?

Leaders can improve by separating the decision (what's best for the company) from the implementation (how to minimize harm to the individual), delivering news one-on-one, allowing emotional expression, and actively acting as an 'agent' to help the person find their next ideal job.

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How should mass layoffs be approached humanely?

Mass layoffs should involve managers delivering news in one-on-one meetings, cutting deeply once to avoid repeated trauma, and then holding individual one-on-ones with the 'stay team' to allow them to express and process their emotions (sadness, anger, fear) and feel heard.

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Does a company's performance improve after layoffs, even if handled poorly?

Yes, even if handled terribly, a company's performance typically improves within two months after layoffs, as reduced coordination issues with fewer people often lead to better operational efficiency and output.

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How can large companies successfully innovate and build new products?

Large companies can innovate by creating small, independent teams with a 'founder mentality' that report directly to the CEO, outside of traditional hierarchies. For truly radical innovation, consider forming entirely new C-Corps for these new products to allow rapid iteration without impacting the core brand.

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What truly motivates people in a work environment?

Beyond financial incentives, what truly motivates people is the joy of building things that get used in the world, coupled with autonomy and ownership over decision-making and creation.

1. Overcome Fear’s Bad Advice

Recognize when fear grips your mind, as it distorts reality and gives bad advice, preventing necessary actions. Seek an objective external perspective to challenge fear-driven predictions, as they are often exaggerated.

2. Stop Acting When Angry

Immediately cease action when you perceive yourself in anger, as it destroys relationships and causes harm. Instead, allow yourself to feel the underlying pain that anger often covers, preventing its externalization onto others.

3. Master Humane Layoffs

Deliver layoff news in a one-on-one conversation with compassion, not via email or group announcement, to prevent dehumanization and anger. Actively become the laid-off employee’s “agent” by proactively helping them find their next fulfilling job.

4. Separate Decision, Implementation

When making difficult choices, first determine the optimal decision based on the primary stakeholder (e.g., customer), then separately plan implementation to humanely address the impact on individuals. This framework allows for tough decisions while mitigating harm.

5. Cut Deep, Only Once

When layoffs are necessary, make a single, deep cut to avoid creating organizational PTSD from multiple rounds of trauma. This allows the remaining “stay team” to recover and rebuild trust more effectively.

6. Post-Layoff One-on-One Sessions

After a layoff, have managers conduct one-on-one sessions with each remaining team member, focusing solely on listening to their thoughts and feelings. This allows for emotional release, accelerates recovery, and prevents rash actions.

7. Dedicate Time for Top Goal

Set aside a protected block of time (30 minutes to 2 hours) daily to work exclusively on your most important priority. This ensures progress on your own objectives, rather than constantly reacting to others’ demands.

8. Perform an Energy Audit

Review two weeks of your calendar, marking each hour green if it increased your energy and red if it drained it. Identify themes in “red” activities to systematically eliminate, delegate, or redesign them to be “exquisite”.

9. Innovate with Internal Startups

Create small, independent “YC-style” internal teams with a founder mentality, reporting directly to the CEO, to rapidly develop new products. Consider establishing these as separate C-Corps with distinct brands to foster fearless iteration without impacting the core business.

10. Prioritize Autonomy, Not Equity

Motivate individuals by offering significant autonomy and ownership over decision-making and creation, rather than solely relying on equity. People are primarily driven by building things that are used and having control over their work.

11. Use “I Perceive You” Feedback

When giving feedback about emotions, use the phrase “I perceive you to be in [emotion]” as an “I statement.” This non-judgmental approach helps the recipient recognize their emotional state without defensiveness.

12. Forewarn Difficult Conversations

Begin challenging discussions by stating “This will be a difficult conversation; take a few seconds to prepare yourself.” This reduces the surprise factor, which often triggers strong emotional responses.

13. Invite Emotional Sharing

During difficult conversations, explicitly ask individuals to share their feelings and thoughts, such as “My guess is you’re feeling anger, fear, sadness; is that true?” This allows for emotional release and makes them feel heard.

14. Actively Listen and Reflect

To make someone feel truly heard, repeat back what you understood them to say, or even reflect their imagined underlying thoughts and emotions. This ensures accurate comprehension and deepens their sense of being understood.

15. Follow Up on Feedback

After listening to feedback, clearly state whether you accept it and what action you’ll take, or explain why you cannot accept it by sharing your own perspective. This maintains trust and ensures the conversation leads to a clear outcome.

16. Implement Comprehensive Goal Tracking

Establish clear goals at the company, department, and individual levels, and rigorously track progress, agreements, and actions. Utilize tools like Asana to ensure transparency and accountability across the organization.

17. Utilize Accountability Partners

For tasks you find difficult to focus on, work with an accountability partner (even remotely) during your dedicated work time. Their presence helps enforce focus and ensures you complete necessary tasks.

18. Learn from Failures, Books

Reflect on past failures to identify “worst practices,” then seek external knowledge from business books or experts to learn “best practices.” Test these new methodologies in real-world scenarios to validate their effectiveness.

19. Mandate Layoff Targets by Dollars

If layoffs are necessary, assign managers a specific dollar amount to cut from their payroll, rather than a headcount. This encourages more strategic decisions and prevents disproportionately cutting junior staff.

20. Empower Managers to Choose Layoffs

Allow individual managers to select which employees to lay off within their allocated dollar target. This ensures decisions are made by those closest to the team, minimizing resentment and optimizing talent retention.

21. Hold Post-Layoff All-Hands

Conduct an all-hands meeting for the remaining “stay team” after layoffs to transparently explain the situation and answer their questions. Directly address fears about job security and company stability to rebuild morale.

22. Run Parallel Innovation Teams

For new product development, deploy two independent teams: one focused on custom engineering and another on customer relationships, potentially using off-the-shelf solutions. Observe which team makes faster progress to guide further investment.

23. Optimize Team Size

Continuously evaluate and optimize your team size, as fewer people in an organization can lead to better performance by reducing coordination overhead and information friction. Don’t shy away from cutting deep if it improves overall efficiency.

24. Apply Energy Audits to Teams

Extend the energy audit process to your entire team to identify what tasks each person loves and dislikes. Reallocate responsibilities based on these insights to improve overall team efficiency and morale, as someone will likely love the task you dislike.

The biggest marker that I've seen between a botched layoff and a successful layoff is at the moment someone hears that they no longer have a job, did they hear it from their manager in a one-on-one? If that's when they heard it, it'll be okay. But if they heard it in an email, in a group chat, in any kind of thing that where they were sitting next to or they were hearing it along with other people, it wasn't personalized, it wasn't one-on-one, that is terrible.

Matt Mochary

I believe that fear is actually giving you bad advice. And I think you're, you're predicting that if you do this, A will happen. Well, I'm predicting that if you do that, the exact opposite will happen.

Matt Mochary

Anger is not a base emotion. Anger is actually a cover. It's a cover for when we feel pain. And so our brain doesn't want to feel the pain. So instead it externalizes it. But the problem is it shoves that pain onto everybody else around us.

Matt Mochary

The real answer here is not to have people let us know that we're in anger and then stop. The real answer is just to allow ourselves to feel the pain. And it sucks, by the way, it actually hurts. But then we're not, sorry, I'm getting emotional. We're not pushing that out on other people.

Matt Mochary

The company is now operating better. I'm not talking on a relative scale. I'm talking on an absolute scale. We're putting out more features, more code, our NPS is up, our whatever it is, whatever department is performing better. And the only answer for it was we've got less people.

Matt Mochary

I don't think it matters at all. I think that what really motivates people is building shit that gets used in the world.

Matt Mochary

Fear is short-term extreme motivation. It's adrenaline. Joy is long-term consistent motivation. That also allows me to look back on my life and go, wow, that was a great life.

Matt Mochary

Dealing with Fear (Matt Mochary)

Matt Mochary
  1. Identify that the person (or yourself) is in fear.
  2. Communicate that fear often gives bad advice and leads to exaggerated predictions.
  3. Propose a 'bet' on a lower-stakes situation: the person predicts an outcome based on their fear, and you predict the opposite.
  4. After winning the bet, the person realizes that fear's advice is unreliable.
  5. In future situations, simply remind the person that you perceive them to be in fear, which often helps them proceed with the necessary action.

Making Someone Feel Heard (Matt Mochary)

Matt Mochary
  1. Ask the person to share their thoughts and feelings verbally.
  2. Repeat back what you heard them say to confirm understanding (e.g., 'I think what I heard you say is X, is that right?').
  3. For deeper understanding, reflect back what you imagine are their unspoken, often stronger, thoughts and emotions (e.g., 'I think what I'm hearing you say is you're pissed off... is that close?').
  4. Once they feel heard, either accept their feedback and state your intended actions, or explain why you cannot accept it by sharing your own perspective and context.

Humane Layoff Process (Matt Mochary)

Matt Mochary
  1. **Preparation:** Form an inner circle (including all managers). Determine the total dollar amount of payroll to cut. Assign each manager a specific dollar amount they need to cut from their team (not number of people). Allow managers approximately 48 hours to choose who to let go.
  2. **Delivery (Morning):** Managers individually Slack each person to be laid off, asking for a 15-minute one-on-one meeting. In the one-on-one, start by warning it will be a difficult conversation and ask them to prepare. Deliver the news: 'I'm letting you go,' and explain why. Acknowledge their likely emotions (anger, fear, sadness) and invite them to share their feelings. Offer to be their 'agent' to help them find their next job, scheduling a follow-up meeting for this.
  3. **Communication to Stay Team (Afternoon):** Hold an all-hands meeting for the remaining employees. Explain what occurred and answer questions, especially addressing fears about job security, company stability, and fairness. Reassure them that the cut was deep to avoid future layoffs.
  4. **Individual Follow-up with Stay Team (Within 2 Weeks):** Each manager holds a one-hour one-on-one with every person on their stay team. The manager's sole role is to listen to the employee's thoughts and feelings (sadness, anger, fear) and make them feel heard by reflecting back their emotions and concerns.

Energy Audit (Matt Mochary, from Diana Chapman)

Matt Mochary
  1. Review two representative weeks of your calendar, filling in actual activities that occurred between scheduled meetings.
  2. Hour by hour, mark each activity with a green marker if it gave you more energy, or a red marker if it was neutral or negative in energy.
  3. Identify themes among the 'red' (energy-draining) activities.
  4. For each red activity, ask: 1) Does this need to be done at all? (If no, cancel it.) 2) Can someone else do it? (If yes, delegate it.) 3) Does it need to be done and only I can do it? (If yes, ask what would make it 'exquisite' or more enjoyable/efficient, then implement that change.)
  5. Repeat the energy audit process periodically until your calendar is approximately 80% green with energy-giving activities.
10 years
Matt Mochary's coaching career duration Started coaching about 10 years ago.
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Discount for Lenny's podcast listeners on Vanta Limited time offer.
$5 a month
Cost of accountability partner app An app where you can sign up to meet someone else and become accountability partners.
80%
Percentage of costs in a tech company that is payroll If preparing for economic downturn, payroll is the primary cost to address.
40%
Layoff percentage for a hotel company during March 2020 Due to the business being severely impacted by the pandemic.
2 months
Time for company performance to improve after a layoff (worst case) Even if handled terribly, the company will perform better within this timeframe.
2 weeks
Time for company performance to improve after a layoff (best case) If the layoff is handled humanely with proper follow-up.