Leveraging growth advisors, hiring well, mastering SEO, and honing your craft | Luc Levesque (Shopify, Meta, TripAdvisor)
Lenny interviews Luke Levesque, Chief Growth Officer at Shopify and former Facebook/TripAdvisor growth leader. They discuss leveraging growth advisors, the evolving landscape of SEO with AI, and Luke's personal routines for self-reflection and professional development.
Deep Dive Analysis
19 Topic Outline
Introduction to Luc Levesque and Growth Advising
Luc's First Facebook M-Team Review and Focus on Impact
Mark Zuckerberg's Personalized Approach to Recruiting Luc
Luc's Hiring Playbook: Finding, Assessing, and Closing Talent
When to Engage a Growth Advisor and the Importance of Product-Market Fit
Qualities and Vetting Strategies for a Great Growth Advisor
The Transformative Impact of a Growth Advisor's Insight
Structuring Advisor Compensation: Equity, Vesting, and Cliffs
Finding Growth Advisors and the Ideal Setup for Growth Teams
Advice for Aspiring Growth Advisors
Understanding SEO as a Growth Channel: Two Website Categories
The Power of Single Keywords in SEO
Overview of Growth Channels and the 'Whatever It Takes' Mindset
The Impact of ChatGPT and AI on SEO and Search Results
Hiring for SEO: Internal Talent vs. Agencies
Timeframe for SEO Impact
The Importance of Self-Reflection and a Structured Morning Routine
Luc's 'Guild' Dinners for Networking and Learning
Lightning Round: Book Recommendations and Personal Habits
5 Key Concepts
Impact vs. Industriousness
This concept highlights the difference between merely working hard or being busy (industriousness) and actually achieving meaningful outcomes (impact). Successful companies and leaders, like Facebook, prioritize and reward impact, focusing on results rather than just activity or effort.
Signs of Excellence
In hiring, this refers to looking for repeated success or outstanding achievements in a candidate's past, whether professional or personal. These signals, such as winning awards, founding ventures, or being 'poached' by a former boss, indicate a high likelihood of future top performance.
Two Buckets of SEO
This framework categorizes websites for SEO strategy: one bucket includes smaller sites with a limited number of static pages (e.g., most e-commerce sites), requiring a proactive content strategy. The second bucket comprises sites with thousands or millions of automatically generated pages (e.g., user-generated content platforms, marketplaces), which offer a larger optimization surface and can grow traffic more rapidly through self-feeding loops.
Growth as 'Whatever It Takes'
This mental model defines growth not as a specific set of channels (like SEO or social media) but as any action or strategy necessary to move the company's key metrics. A growth team's scope can be broad, encompassing new product development, M&A, partnerships, or optimizing any channel that drives the North Star outcome.
YOLOing in Product Development
This refers to a strategy where, for certain changes, the speed of implementation is prioritized over the rigor of extensive experimentation. When a product experience is clearly better or the outcome is highly predictable, a 'you only live once' approach can be taken to quickly deploy changes, potentially using pre-post analysis or holdouts to mitigate major damage.
8 Questions Answered
Companies should generally wait until they have achieved product-market fit before heavily focusing on growth. Bringing on a growth advisor too early, before users love the product, can lead to wasted capital and potentially damage the product's reputation by exposing an unready experience to the market.
Look for someone with deep understanding of growth levers and the 'why' behind their effectiveness, not just playbooks. They should have extensive experience with experimentation in high-traffic environments. Founders can also leverage existing trusted advisors or network contacts to help vet potential growth advisors.
Luc recommends equity compensation to align incentives, ideally with front-loaded vesting to encourage rapid value delivery and team training. A three-month cliff is also advised, allowing both parties to terminate the agreement if it's not working, de-risking the partnership.
The ideal setup is to have internal talent, as they can embed growth into the company culture and build a team. Advisors are best suited to supplement internal teams, providing specialized knowledge and accelerating learning, especially in areas where internal expertise is still developing.
Most companies can find an SEO angle due to existing demand on Google. Products with a large number of automatically generated pages (e.g., user-generated content, marketplaces) are particularly well-suited for significant SEO impact. Even products with few pages can leverage SEO through a strong content strategy addressing audience questions.
Google's integration of AI-generated answers directly into search results means that many informational queries will be answered without users needing to click through to websites. This shift is expected to disrupt industries reliant on informational keywords, potentially leading to reduced organic clicks and a greater emphasis on paid channels or optimizing for AI platforms.
The timeframe varies: if optimizing existing, well-ranking content, impact can be seen very quickly, sometimes within days. If building new content or parts of the site, it can take longer, typically between three to twelve months, for Google to build trust and rank the new content appropriately.
Constant self-reflection and leveraging coaches are crucial for continuous iteration and improvement across all aspects of life (career, personal, family). Dedicating time to structured self-reflection helps identify what's working, what's not, and how to improve, driving consistent progress towards goals.
35 Actionable Insights
1. Focus on Impact, Not Activity
Leaders and companies should focus exclusively on ‘impact’ (outcomes) rather than just ‘activity’ (how hard people work or what they do), as this laser focus drives progress towards the mission. This distinction ensures efforts are directed towards measurable results.
2. Prioritize Hiring as a Leader
As you scale as a leader, recognize that hiring becomes the most important skill to become world-class at, because the bulk of your team’s success will largely depend on the quality of your hires. Dedicate significant effort to refining your hiring playbook.
3. Be Relentless in Hiring
Don’t give up on top talent and don’t let momentum drop during the hiring process, as ’no’ doesn’t always mean no. Persistence and sustained engagement can ultimately secure great hires, even over several months.
4. Recruit Executive Help for Hiring
When hiring, involve the entire executive team, not just recruiters or HR, as all leaders understand the importance of talent and are usually happy to help close candidates. Leverage your peers and leaders to assist in the recruitment process.
5. Personalize Hiring Process
Involve a candidate’s spouse and family in the hiring process, especially for significant moves, as changing companies is a very personal decision involving the whole family. This approach can address personal concerns and strengthen the candidate’s commitment.
6. Seek Signs of Excellence
When finding talent, look for ‘signs of excellence’ or repeated past performance (work-related or not) as the best predictor of future performance. Aim for candidates who have demonstrated a consistent ability to stand above the crowd.
7. Poached Talent: Strong Signal
Consider it a strong signal of excellence if a candidate’s former boss leaves a company and then tries to poach them. This indicates high performance and trust, as the former leader has the most direct knowledge of the individual’s capabilities.
8. Growth: Whatever It Takes
Define ‘growth’ broadly as ‘whatever it takes to move the needle,’ encompassing zero-to-one product building, M&A, SEO, social, onboarding, or partnerships, rather than restricting it to a small subset of channels. Test many different things and lean into what works.
9. YOLO Product Changes for Speed
Don’t feel every product change needs to be a slow, rigorous experiment; sometimes, making a direct change (‘YOLOing’) for a better product experience or a known solution can be faster and more impactful. This approach prioritizes speed, while still monitoring for major damage.
10. Wait for Product Market Fit
Generally, wait until you have clear product market fit (a product users love with strong retention or a good loop) before heavily investing in growth. Growing a product that lacks product market fit can do more damage than good by exposing users to a poor experience.
11. Test Growth in Isolated Markets
If you need users to test product market fit before full growth, try to do it in smaller, ‘off-the-grid’ markets (e.g., an English-speaking country) to contain growth and get feedback without broad exposure. This minimizes potential negative impact on your brand.
12. Vet Growth Advisors with Experts
If you’re looking for a growth advisor or hiring growth talent, leverage existing advisors or trusted network contacts who know growth to help vet candidates. For someone who knows growth, it’s an easy ask to assess another person’s talent.
13. Compensate Advisors with Equity
Structure advisor relationships with equity compensation, if possible, to align incentives between the advisor and the founder. This ensures both parties are working towards the same successful outcomes for the company.
14. Front-Load Advisor Equity Vesting
Structure advisor equity vesting to be front-loaded (vesting earlier rather than later) to incentivize them to deliver as much value as possible quickly and train your team. The ideal engagement is for an advisor to deliver value and then for the team to learn and become self-sufficient.
15. Implement 3-Month Advisor Cliff
Include a three-month cliff in advisor agreements, allowing either party to terminate the deal if it’s not working. This de-risks the partnership for both sides and further incentivizes the advisor to add significant value quickly.
16. Ensure Long-Term Advisor Equity Tail
For growth advisors working for equity, ensure the deal structure includes a long tail (e.g., 10+ years) for options or RSUs. Company success and liquidity can take a very long time, and this aligns incentives for the long haul.
17. Source Advisors from VCs
To find good growth advisors, start by asking your investors (VCs often have amazing networks), or ask other founders who have had good experiences. These networks are often the best source for high-quality, impactful advisors.
18. Avoid Public Halo Hires
When vetting growth advisors or talent, don’t rely solely on their public ‘halo’ (e.g., conference presentations, large social media following); instead, focus on past performance, team experience, and deep craft knowledge. A large following does not automatically equate to high performance.
19. Prioritize Internal Growth Talent
Always prefer to hire internal growth talent over agencies or pure advisors, as internal hires embed growth into the culture, can do more, and ensure knowledge stays within the company. Agencies should generally be a last resort.
20. Surround Internal Talent with Advisors
If you hire internal growth talent (even if they don’t know growth initially), surround them with a set of growth advisors so they can learn and embed that knowledge into the company culture. This helps build internal capability and reduces long-term external dependency.
21. Identify SEO Fit Early
Consider your product a good fit for SEO if there’s existing demand in Google for your product area, and especially if your product naturally generates thousands or millions of user-generated content pages (like profiles or listings). This indicates a large optimization surface for potential impact.
22. Create Content for SEO
If your site has a small number of pages, implement a content strategy (e.g., a blog or new site sections) to create high-quality answers to questions your audience might have, to drive SEO traffic. This is a tried and true approach to build authority and capture demand.
23. Focus SEO on High-Impact Keywords
Recognize that entire industries or businesses can be built around ranking for a single, high-volume keyword, so don’t underestimate the exponential impact of owning top search results for critical terms. It’s not crazy to have an entire SEO team focused on a small number of keywords.
24. Prepare for AI’s SEO Impact
Anticipate significant changes in SEO over the next 12-24 months due to AI-powered search results (like Google’s AI box), especially for informational keywords. This may lead to fewer organic clicks and a potential shift towards paid channels, requiring new optimization strategies.
25. Hire Amazing Internal SEO Talent
For SEO, prioritize hiring an amazing, experienced SEO person internally. If not possible, hire a relentless doer and surround them with great SEO advisors, as internal talent is preferred over agencies for long-term knowledge and impact.
26. Expect SEO Impact 3-12 Months
While SEO impact can sometimes be immediate for existing, well-ranking content, expect it to take between three to twelve months to see significant results, especially when building new content or site sections. This timeframe allows for Google to build trust and rank new content.
27. Practice Structured Self-Reflection
Dedicate time (e.g., an hour daily) for structured self-reflection using a dashboard to track progress in various life areas (e.g., friend, spouse, parent, leader). Identify what’s going well, what’s not, why, and what to do about it to make constant progress.
28. Build ‘Bootloader’ Morning Routine
Develop a consistent morning routine (e.g., exercise, stretching, meditation, cold plunge, reading) to ‘boot you up’ for the day. This routine can significantly improve daily performance, mood, and overall well-being.
29. Incorporate Cold Plunges for Mood, Sleep
Consider adding cold plunges to your routine, starting slowly and gradually decreasing temperature, as they can significantly boost mood for several hours and improve sleep. Experiment with different durations and temperatures to find your sweet spot.
30. Seek Family Feedback
Actively ask family members (e.g., children, spouse) for feedback on how you can be a better parent, partner, or friend. Their insights can lead to meaningful changes and stronger relationships, as they provide a unique perspective on your behavior.
31. Implement Family Routines
Based on family feedback, establish consistent routines (e.g., a bi-weekly ‘daddy date’ with each child) to ensure desired interactions and relationship building are repeatable, not just one-off events. This ensures consistent quality time and connection.
32. Host ‘Guild’ Dinners
Organize regular ‘guild’ dinners (5-8 interesting people, catered, at your home) focused on specific topics (e.g., consumer product, SEO, growth) to foster learning, networking, and recruiting. People enjoy connecting and discussing mutual interests in a comfortable setting.
33. Read ‘Spark’ for Exercise
Read ‘Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain’ to understand the neuroscience of exercise and how specific routines can boost cognition and performance, beyond just physical fitness. This book provides a blueprint for leveraging exercise for brain health.
34. Read ‘Smart Brevity’ for Communication
Read ‘Smart Brevity’ to learn how to write crisply and communicate tightly, which is crucial for getting your point across effectively in remote work environments with high message volume. This skill helps ensure your messages are digested and understood.
35. Reread ‘Influence’ for Growth
Reread ‘Influence’ by Cialdini at least once a year, as it provides the fundamental psychological underpinnings for many product and growth principles. This classic book offers timeless insights into human behavior and persuasion.
7 Key Quotes
The right growth advisor can have literally company changing impact.
Luc Levesque
No doesn't necessarily mean no.
Luc Levesque
When somebody's boss leaves the company and then comes back to poach them, that is such a strong signal.
Luc Levesque
It takes years to learn it, but it literally can take seconds, literally, to communicate that.
Luc Levesque
Growth done right is exponential. It literally is company changing.
Luc Levesque
This is actually the biggest change since the, since the inception of Google.
Luc Levesque
The only people that are going to remember that you worked late for many nights is your kids.
Lenny Rachitsky
3 Protocols
Luc's Morning Bootloader Routine
Luc Levesque- Wake up at five AM.
- Do cardio/exercise.
- Stretch.
- Meditate.
- Do a cold plunge (starting warm, then cold, or straight to cold, gradually decreasing temperature).
- Do some reading.
- Dedicate one hour to structured self-reflection using a dashboard (tracking what's going well/not, experiments, and asking 'what am I screwing up, why, and what to do about it').
Starting a Cold Plunge
Luc Levesque- Start by going into a hot tub to warm up, then transition to the cold plunge, and back to the hot tub.
- Alternatively, jump straight into the cold plunge without warming up first.
- Go slow, starting with a less cold temperature.
- Slowly make the water colder over time.
Hosting a 'Guild' Dinner
Luc Levesque- Invite 5-8 interesting people who are doing interesting things.
- Get the food catered to avoid cooking.
- Host the dinner at your home for a more personal atmosphere.
- Start around 6 PM and let the conversation flow until 9 or 10 PM.
- Select a specific topic that is common and mutually interesting to all attendees.