Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, Seth Godin, Section4)
Wes Kow, co-founder of Maven, shares high-value insights on managing up, the "super specific how" for writing, the "state change method" for engaging meetings, and effective strategies for saying no.
Deep Dive Analysis
10 Topic Outline
Wes Kao's Career Journey and Path to Maven
Working with Seth Godin and Co-founding the Alt MBA
The 'Super Specific How' Framework for Effective Communication
Understanding the 'Content Hierarchy of BS'
The 'State Change Method' for Audience Engagement
Using 'Eyes Light Up' Moments as Communication Data
The Importance and Practice of 'Managing Up'
Proactive Communication Strategies for Managers
Improving Writing Craft and Avoiding Accidental Bias
Strategies for Saying 'No' Effectively by Discussing Trade-offs
6 Key Concepts
Super Specific How
This framework suggests that most content overemphasizes the 'what' and 'why,' while audiences primarily seek the 'how.' Effective communication should cut backstories and preambles, focusing directly on the actionable methods, nuances, and examples of how to apply information.
Content Hierarchy of BS
This pyramid illustrates that different content formats allow varying degrees of 'bullshit' or unsubstantiated claims. Formats like Twitter or keynote speeches, being one-directional, allow more BS, whereas in-depth articles, books, and especially interactive cohort-based courses demand greater rigor and accountability.
State Change Method
A technique to maintain audience engagement during presentations or meetings by breaking up monologues with interactive activities. These 'state changes' can include asking for chat responses, conducting polls, switching between screen share and gallery view, or using breakout rooms to add variety and re-engage participants.
Eyes Light Up
This concept involves observing non-verbal cues, such as a person's face visibly changing, leaning forward, or excitement in their voice, as data points for genuine interest. Recognizing these 'eyes light up' moments helps speakers identify what resonates with their audience, allowing them to focus on those points and trim less engaging content.
Managing Up
The proactive practice of managing your boss by keeping them informed, understanding their concerns, and taking tasks off their plate. This approach builds trust, creates opportunities, and is a crucial skill often mastered by senior leaders to ensure alignment and efficiency.
Saying No Through Trade-offs
Instead of directly refusing a request, this method involves explaining what existing, important work would need to be deprioritized or delayed to accommodate the new task. This protects one's bandwidth while allowing the requester to understand the implications and collaboratively decide on priorities.
8 Questions Answered
Wes applied for a special projects lead role after seeing a blog post from Seth Godin, submitting a video application in one take, and eventually securing the position after a few interview rounds in 2014.
Seth Godin is even smarter, sharper, and funnier in person than in his writing, fostering a culture of excellence and rigor by maintaining incredibly high standards for shipping quality work quickly.
Focus on the 'super specific how' by cutting out unnecessary backstory and preamble, and be aware of the 'content hierarchy of BS,' which suggests that formats like courses demand more rigor than short social media posts.
Implement the 'state change method' by punctuating monologues with interactive activities like chat questions, polls, screen share transitions, or breakout rooms, ideally every 3-5 minutes or slides.
Look for 'eyes light up' moments, where a person's face or demeanor visibly changes to show genuine interest, leaning forward, or excitement in their voice, using this non-verbal data to refine your communication.
Managing up, by proactively keeping your boss informed and taking things off their plate, leads to greater appreciation, more opportunities, increased trust, and is a skill highly valued in senior leadership.
Study the craft and technical aspects of writing from books that focus on strong sentences, paragraphs, and logical arguments to precisely convey meaning and avoid accidentally misleading readers.
Instead of a direct 'no,' discuss the trade-offs by explaining what existing priorities would need to be deprioritized to accommodate the new request, allowing the other person to help prioritize.
15 Actionable Insights
1. Embrace Managing Up
Actively manage your boss to gain appreciation, more opportunities, and trust, recognizing that this skill is crucial at all career levels and is often mastered by the most senior individuals.
2. Keep Your Boss Informed Proactively
Regularly update your manager on your decisions and work, providing the right level of context, especially for irreversible or expensive choices, to avoid surprises and constant questioning.
3. Send a Weekly “State of You” Email
Implement a weekly email to your manager outlining your current priorities, any blockers requiring their help, and other key thoughts, ensuring alignment and preventing miscommunication.
4. Over-Communicate (Especially Remotely)
Err on the side of over-communication in all work contexts, particularly in remote settings, as what feels like excessive communication to you is often just the right amount for the recipient.
5. Structure Communication with TLDR First
Place the most important point (TLDR) at the top of your communications, followed by optional detailed context, allowing recipients to quickly grasp the main idea or delve deeper if needed.
6. Focus Writing on “How” Not Just “What” & “Why”
When writing or teaching, dedicate more time to explaining “how” to apply concepts and the nuances involved, rather than over-elaborating on the “what” and “why,” which your audience likely already understands.
7. Cut Backstory; Start Right Before the Action
Eliminate unnecessary backstory and preamble in your writing, getting straight to the most engaging or “juicy” part of your narrative with minimal context to maintain reader interest.
8. Study the Craft of Writing
Beyond mimicking others, actively study the technical aspects and craft of writing (e.g., sentence structure, logical arguments) to precisely convey your meaning and avoid accidental misdirection.
9. Be Intentional with Recommendations
When presenting options or pros/cons, clearly state your recommendation upfront to build trust and avoid appearing biased, even if you then discuss associated risks or downsides.
10. Start Business Communications with Conclusion
In business contexts, begin your communications with your conclusion or main point, then follow with the supporting rationale, rather than building up to the conclusion at the end.
11. Punctuate Monologues with State Changes
In meetings or presentations, actively break up monologues with “state changes” (e.g., chat questions, polls, breakout rooms, speaker changes) every 3-5 minutes or slides to maintain audience engagement.
12. Observe “Eyes Light Up” Moments
Pay close attention to when people’s eyes genuinely light up during conversations or explanations, using these visceral reactions as data to identify what truly resonates with them.
13. Tailor Content to “Eyes Light Up” Insights
Based on “eyes light up” moments, refine your content, pitches, and explanations by trimming out parts that bore people and focusing on what sparks genuine interest and engagement.
14. Say No by Discussing Trade-offs
When declining a request, especially with colleagues or managers, frame your “no” by discussing the trade-offs: “I can do X, but Y (current priority) will be delayed. Is that acceptable?”
15. Use “Prioritize and Communicate” for New Requests
When given a new task, communicate where it will sit in your current priority list and ask for confirmation or re-prioritization, rather than simply accepting or rejecting it.
7 Key Quotes
Don't take yourself out of the running before you get rejected. Like don't reject yourself basically.
Wes Kao
The reason why it works is because they're so insight rich.
Wes Kao
The rigor and that, that refusal to accept anything but excellence was just so awesome.
Wes Kao
Start right before you get eaten by the bear.
Wes Kao
If you think about most Zoom meetings or presentations, it's one person talking at you the entire time and everyone else has to listen silently.
Wes Kao
In a work context, surprises are generally not great.
Wes Kao
You think you're over communicating, but to the recipient, it's actually just the right amount.
Wes Kao
3 Protocols
Weekly Proactive Communication Email
Lenny Rachitsky- Send a weekly email to your manager titled 'The State of [Your Name]'.
- Include three sections: current priorities, blockers needing help, and things on your mind currently that week.
- Place blockers at the top of the email to ensure they are seen immediately.
Saying No by Discussing Trade-offs
Alex Peck (as described by Wes Kao)- Acknowledge the new request.
- Explain what existing, important work would need to be deprioritized or delayed to accommodate the new task.
- Ask the requester if they still want you to proceed with the new task, given the stated trade-offs, or if they prefer you prioritize the original projects.
Prioritize and Communicate Framework for New Tasks
Lenny Rachitsky's Manager- Integrate the new task into your existing priority list.
- Communicate to the requester where the new task now sits in your priorities (e.g., 'This will be third on my list').
- Ask if this prioritization seems reasonable to them and if they agree with the proposed order.