Rethinking SEO in the age of AI | Eli Schwartz (SEO advisor, author)

Sep 19, 2024 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Eli Schwartz, a growth advisor specializing in SEO and author of Product-Led SEO, discusses the significant shift in SEO due to AI overviews and LLMs. He explains how Google's integration of AI answers is changing search behavior and what businesses must do to succeed in this new paradigm.

At a Glance
25 Insights
1h 55m Duration
20 Topics
7 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Initial Thoughts on AI's Impact on SEO

Google's AI Overviews and Search Generative Experience

Impact of AI Overviews on User Search Journeys

Top-of-Funnel vs. Mid-Funnel SEO Strategies

Treating SEO as a Product Problem

Case Studies: Zapier and Tinder's SEO Approaches

Three Steps to Get Started with SEO

When SEO is Not the Right Marketing Channel

Evaluating SEO Investment and Trade-offs

Measuring SEO Success: Conversions vs. Traffic

Understanding the Time Horizon for SEO Results

Leveraging AI in Content Creation for SEO

AI Overviews: Branding Opportunity or Content Theft?

Brand Building as the Foundation for Link Building

Programmatic vs. Editorial SEO Strategies

Key Takeaways from the Google Antitrust Verdict

Debunking Common SEO Myths

Forecasting SEO Success: Top-Down Approach

The Evolving Need for SEO Expertise

TikTok and Instagram as Search Alternatives

SEO as a Product

A mindset where SEO is approached like product development, focusing on understanding user needs from the search channel and creating a valuable experience or asset for them, rather than just a marketing tactic.

Top-of-Funnel SEO

Search queries where users are in the early stages of discovery or curiosity, often using broad keywords. These queries are increasingly being addressed by AI Overviews, reducing the need for users to click through traditional search results.

Mid-Funnel SEO

Search queries where users have a clearer intent and are looking for specific solutions or comparisons, often after initial discovery. This stage is becoming more critical for SEO as AI Overviews guide users to this point.

AI Overviews (formerly SGE)

Google's feature that provides AI-generated summary answers directly at the top of search results, essentially integrating a ChatGPT-like experience into Google Search. This feature aims to provide direct answers, potentially reducing clicks to original sources.

Programmatic SEO

An SEO strategy that involves automatically generating a large number of unique, data-driven pages by combining various data sources and templates. This approach is effective for scaling content that addresses specific user needs at scale, like property listings or product comparisons.

Editorial SEO

The traditional approach to SEO that involves manually writing long-form, unique content, such as blog posts or articles. This method is typically less scalable and may be less effective for queries now handled by AI Overviews or programmatic solutions.

Unstructured Data

Information found in free-form text, like blog posts or articles, which Google's AI Overviews are now capable of summarizing and structuring into direct answers. This contrasts with structured data, which is already organized and easily extractable.

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How is AI impacting SEO and search results?

AI Overviews (formerly SGE) are now integrated into Google search, providing AI-generated answers directly. This pushes traditional search results down and means users get answers without clicking links, especially for top-of-funnel queries.

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What is the difference between top-of-funnel and mid-funnel SEO in the AI era?

Top-of-funnel searches (broad queries) are increasingly being answered by AI Overviews, reducing clicks to websites. Mid-funnel searches (more specific, intent-driven queries) are where SEO will continue to matter, as users seek deeper information or solutions after initial AI-driven discovery.

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How should businesses approach SEO in this new AI-driven landscape?

Businesses should treat SEO as a product problem, focusing on understanding the user's self-discovery journey and creating product experiences that address mid-funnel needs. This requires collaboration between product and marketing teams.

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When is SEO not a good investment for a business?

SEO is often not a good fit for B2B SaaS companies or products with complex sales cycles, high price points, or where the problem isn't actively searched for. If the user journey doesn't lead to an online conversion, other channels like sales or brand marketing may offer better ROI.

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What are the key steps to get started with SEO effectively?

First, deeply understand your user and what problems they would search for that your product solves. Second, decide what valuable asset or product experience you need to create for that user. Third, envision and build this product, involving design, engineering, and product management resources.

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How should businesses measure the success of their SEO efforts?

SEO success should be measured by conversion metrics relevant to the business, such as MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads), actual dollar conversions, or specific user actions (e.g., phone calls, video views), rather than vanity metrics like top-of-funnel rankings or raw traffic volume.

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Can AI be used to create content for SEO?

Yes, AI can be a useful tool for content creation, especially for structured or descriptive content like e-commerce product descriptions, or to assist human editors. However, it should not be used to generate large volumes of low-quality, unhelpful blog posts solely for SEO purposes.

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How do AI Overviews impact a company's brand and content strategy?

Showing up as a brand mention in an AI Overview indicates strong branding efforts. However, if your content is merely linked, Google might be 'stealing' your content by summarizing it, potentially reducing direct traffic to your site. Companies should focus on building a strong brand that gets mentioned.

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What is the difference between programmatic and editorial SEO?

Programmatic SEO involves generating many unique pages by combining data sources and templates (e.g., Zillow's property pages, TripAdvisor's hotel pages). Editorial SEO involves manually writing long-form content like blog posts. Programmatic is often more scalable and effective for specific user use cases.

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How accurate are keyword research tools for forecasting SEO traffic?

Keyword research tools are often inaccurate, sometimes overestimating or underestimating search volume by many factors, because they rely on proprietary algorithms and estimations rather than direct Google data. They are useful for normalization and understanding user journeys but not for precise forecasting.

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How should businesses forecast potential SEO success?

Instead of a bottom-up forecast based on unreliable keyword volumes, use a top-down, TAM-based approach. Estimate the total addressable market (e.g., population, demographics), apply relevant filters (e.g., online buyers), and then project market penetration and conversion rates.

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Is TikTok or Instagram replacing Google Search, especially for younger generations?

While Gen Z uses platforms like TikTok for top-of-funnel discovery and visual content (e.g., travel inspiration), Google Search remains dominant for mid-funnel, intent-driven searches like booking hotels or flights, where users need to take specific actions. Different platforms serve different parts of the user journey.

1. Treat SEO as a Product

Approach SEO as a product question, with product managers thinking about the user experience and how to position the product for self-discovery journeys, rather than just a marketing challenge.

2. Cultivate User Empathy

Start your SEO process by deeply understanding your target user’s perspective and problems, asking what they would search for to find your product.

3. Validate User Search Intent

Do not invest in SEO if you cannot clearly identify what users would search for to find your product, as SEO is about appealing to that specific user intent.

4. Evaluate Online Conversion Potential

Assess if your product’s buyer journey is primarily online and self-serve; if it requires extensive sales interaction or multiple stakeholders, SEO may not provide a good return on investment for direct conversions.

5. Prioritize Channels by Conversion

If your product’s core conversion motion is sales-led rather than online, other channels like brand ads or influencer campaigns might yield faster and better ROI than SEO.

6. Focus on Mid-Funnel SEO

Shift SEO efforts to target mid-funnel queries, as AI overviews will handle top-of-funnel discovery, leaving opportunities for deeper, more specific searches where users have a clearer sense of what they want.

7. Align SEO with Buyer Journey

Create SEO solutions that directly address mid-funnel problems within the buyer’s journey, ensuring your efforts remain relevant and effective regardless of AI overview changes.

8. Define Clear SEO Conversion Metrics

Clearly define specific business-relevant conversion metrics for your SEO efforts (e.g., MQLs, dollar conversions, phone calls) rather than relying solely on top-of-funnel rankings or traffic, which may not indicate business value.

9. Avoid Traffic for Traffic’s Sake

Do not generate traffic to content that doesn’t convert, as Google doesn’t inherently reward high traffic if it’s not useful or relevant to your business goals.

10. Build SEO as a Product

Envision and build your SEO solution as a product, requiring design, engineering, and product management resources, not just content creation, to serve the SEO user effectively.

11. Design SEO Assets Strategically

After understanding your user, decide what specific SEO asset (e.g., programmatic page, content) you need to create to meet their search intent and solve their problem.

12. Set SEO Milestones

Treat SEO development like a product roadmap, setting clear milestones for ideation, building, and shipping, then track progress against these to assess effectiveness.

13. Favor Programmatic SEO

Generally, programmatic SEO is a more effective and scalable approach than editorial content for many businesses, especially when there’s a clear user use case and data sources.

14. Programmatic SEO for Scale & Use Case

Implement programmatic SEO only when there’s a clear user use case and potential for scale, ensuring the generated pages provide a genuine solution and are not just content for content’s sake.

Focus on building a strong brand that naturally earns mentions and links, rather than engaging in artificial link-building tactics like buying guest posts on low-authority websites.

16. AI Overviews as Branding

View appearing in AI overviews as a branding exercise; if your brand is mentioned, it signifies successful branding efforts, but merely having your content linked might mean it’s being given away for free.

17. Prioritize Content Usefulness

Focus on creating helpful and useful content, regardless of whether AI is used in its generation, as Google’s primary concern is content quality and relevance, not its origin.

18. Use AI for Product Descriptions

Leverage AI to generate product descriptions for e-commerce sites, as this type of content directly supports product optimization rather than creating generic, less useful blog posts.

19. Follow Google’s SEO Basics

Adhere to Google’s best practices for SEO: build an understandable website, ensure proper internal linking, and create helpful, user-centric content, as these simple steps unlock significant initial success.

20. Assess Technical SEO Needs

Prioritize technical SEO only if you have a massive website with millions of pages; for smaller sites (e.g., a 100-page SaaS tool), it’s less critical and investing heavily in it could be a waste of time.

21. De-emphasize Page Speed Fixes

Avoid overspending on page speed optimizations unless you are in a highly competitive niche where marginal speed differences significantly impact user experience, as it often provides diminishing returns for most sites.

22. SEO for User Action & Business Benefit

Frame your SEO strategy around facilitating user actions that directly benefit your business, recognizing that the aggregate demand for these actions remains constant even if search volumes shift.

23. Use Top-Down SEO Forecasting

For SEO forecasting, especially for new market entries, use a top-down (TAM-based) approach by estimating market size and penetration, as bottom-up keyword-based forecasts are often inaccurate and underestimate potential.

Utilize keyword research tools for indicative trends and understanding user search behavior (e.g., spelling variations), but avoid relying on their exact volume numbers for precise forecasting due to their inherent inaccuracies.

25. Develop Consulting Skills (Moonlight)

If aspiring to be a growth advisor, build your consulting skills (sales, closing, retention) by moonlighting while keeping your day job, rather than immediately quitting to become an advisor.

Think of SEO as a product. The product managers are the people that should be thinking about this SEO question because it's a product question.

Eli Schwartz

Transparently, I thought this was going to be an apocalypse. Up until AI overviews, whoever won on that long form piece of content would get that first click. But now that doesn't exist anymore.

Eli Schwartz

If you can't answer the question about what is it that someone's going to do a search on, then don't do SEO.

Eli Schwartz

To a lot of people, SEO is kind of this dark art. It is not a dark art. It is simple.

Eli Schwartz

The biggest myth in SEO is that you could just build links and link building is the secret source and the secret sauce to like growing your SEO footprint. And that's totally wrong because the way most people build links is they buy these guest posts or they pay for links on low authority websites that sort of look like they might have authority.

Eli Schwartz

I don't think there's a chance that chat GBT or perplexity or Claude or any of these other LLM startups... have a chance. They're really unseating Google purely from a quality standpoint.

Eli Schwartz

I think the most important thing to leave people with is that SEO is not dying. There will always be a world where users are requesting their own information.

Eli Schwartz

Google believes that we're in the very early days of LLMs. And even with all the machine learning they do and understanding users, you will always need real user data, which Google has on past searches.

Eli Schwartz

I don't know that any of them can get close to the truth was when I've worked with big companies where there were keywords that I could look at Google search console. Some of them, the tools were overestimating by 10 times. Sometimes they're underestimating by 10 times.

Eli Schwartz

Getting Started with SEO in the New Paradigm

Eli Schwartz
  1. Be the user: Try to understand who your user is and what problem they would search for that your product solves. If you cannot answer this question, do not do SEO.
  2. Decide on the asset to create: Based on your understanding of the user, determine what product or experience you need to build (e.g., a programmatic page, a specific tool) that showcases how your product solves their problem.
  3. Envision and build the product: Treat the SEO solution as a product, requiring design, engineering, and product management resources to oversee the building of the necessary pages or features.
98%
Google's market share for mobile searches According to the Google antitrust verdict, based on Google's own documentation or court findings.
1%
DuckDuckGo's market share (approx. 10-12 years ago) Based on a search market penetration survey conducted by Eli Schwartz at SurveyMonkey.
2%
DuckDuckGo's current market share Mentioned in the Google antitrust verdict, indicating minimal growth despite significant investment.
Upwards of $10,000
Typical monthly cost for an SEO agency Eli's estimate for the cost of someone's time and services.
$10,000
Cost of a booth at a gardening show Example of an alternative marketing investment that might yield better results than SEO for some businesses.
63%
Percentage of Gen Z using TikTok to search Google's internal data, cited in the antitrust verdict.