The creator of WordPress opens up about becoming an internet villain, why he’s taking a stand, and the future of open source | Matt Mullenweg (founder and CEO, Automattic)

Mar 2, 2025 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Matt Mullenweg, co-creator of WordPress and CEO of Automatic, discusses the ongoing drama with WP Engine, his open source philosophy, why Meta's Llama is "fake open source," how AI trains on open source code, and Automatic's acquisition strategy.

At a Glance
23 Insights
1h 34m Duration
14 Topics
5 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Introduction to Matt Mullenweg and WordPress's Scale

Matt's Career Journey and Automattic's Products

The Bay Lights Project and Philanthropic Philosophy

Origin Story of Matt's Open Source Advocacy

Defining True Open Source: Meta's Llama Controversy

AI Models Trained on Open Source Code and Future Contributions

Lessons on Building a Successful Online Community

The WP Engine Controversy: Background and Issues

Addressing Public Criticism and Navigating Online Sentiment

Clarifying WordPress Trademark Ownership and Governance

The Advanced Custom Fields Fork Controversy

Social Media's Role in Public Perception and Misinformation

Acquiring and Reviving Tumblr: History and Strategy

Automattic's Acquisition Philosophy and Future Plans

Open Source Freedoms

These are four fundamental freedoms attached to software under licenses like the GPL: the freedom to use the software for any purpose, to see how it works, to change it, and to redistribute those changes, with the condition that redistributed changes also carry these freedoms.

Viral Open Source License

A type of open source license, like the GPL, that requires anyone who shares modified software to also provide the same four freedoms to the recipients. This ensures the open source nature propagates through derivatives.

Technical Debt

A concept referring to the implied cost of additional rework caused by choosing an easy (limited) solution now instead of using a better approach that would take longer. It can accumulate in companies, impacting product quality and integration.

Building a Movement

A philosophy for creating successful projects beyond just a product, by giving people something to believe in, a worldview, and opportunities for collaboration. This includes fostering community, events, and inviting contributions beyond just the core utility of the software.

True Platform

A platform where the ecosystem built on top of it generates more money than the core platform itself. This contrasts with proprietary platforms where the core entity might pull the rug out from successful third-party developers by changing APIs or removing access.

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What is the core issue with Meta's Llama being called 'open source'?

Llama includes a clause that requires a license from Meta if a user exceeds a certain threshold of monthly active users (e.g., 750 million), which violates the fundamental open source freedom to use the software for any purpose without permission.

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How do AI models benefit from open source code?

Many AI models are trained on open source code because its licenses explicitly allow for such use, making it a safe and accessible training dataset, unlike proprietary software code.

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What are the key reasons behind the WP Engine controversy?

WP Engine, under private equity ownership, was using the WordPress trademark in a confusing way, implying official association, while not contributing back to the core project and cutting corners on product features like revisions, negatively impacting the WordPress brand.

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Why is it difficult to explain complex issues like the WP Engine controversy on social media?

Social media platforms, with character limits and algorithms that often promote outrage, are not well-suited for nuanced discussions, leading to misinformation spreading faster than corrections and influencing public perception negatively.

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What was the journey of Tumblr before Automattic acquired it?

Tumblr was initially a successful blogging/social networking hybrid, sold to Yahoo for $1.1 billion, then languished under Yahoo's and later Verizon's ownership due to various business challenges and team limitations, eventually being sold to Automattic for a significantly lower price.

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How does Automattic approach company acquisitions?

Automattic primarily acquires companies that are already doing well to accelerate their growth or as 'acquihire' for talented teams to work on existing projects. Turnarounds like Tumblr are rare and challenging, and the goal is to be a good steward of communities and software.

1. Build a Movement, Not Product

Give people a philosophy or worldview to believe in, incorporating art and soul (e.g., “code is poetry,” jazz musician release names) to inspire engagement beyond a product’s base utility.

2. Stand Up for Open Source Ideals

Fight to protect your open source ideals against ‘bullies’ or entities that might take advantage, as inaction can ultimately destroy what you’ve created.

3. Build on True Open Source

Choose to build businesses and projects on truly open source platforms to guarantee fundamental freedoms, ownership, and protection against platform changes or hostile actions.

4. Foster Community Around Software

Organize meetups, events, forums, office hours, and Q&As around your software to invite contributions, allow people to get involved, and enable them to build on top of it.

5. Prioritize Singular Vision for Software

Recognize that great software often reflects the singular vision of a leader, not a committee, enabling unpopular but necessary long-term decisions that ensure continued relevance and growth.

6. Act as a Steward, Not CEO

As a leader, act more like a mayor than a CEO, understanding that ultimate accountability is to the community and users, even when making final decisions.

7. Contribute to Open Source Projects

Devote even a few hours a week to contributing to open source projects that you use or like, leveraging any talent (coding, design, translation, support) to make a huge impact and level up your skills.

8. Focus on Core & Ruthless Editing

To improve product quality and user experience, go back to basics, improve core functionalities, and ruthlessly edit or cut less relevant features, especially when managing a large product surface area with limited resources.

9. Leverage AI for Automated Security

Utilize automated scanning and AI for security reviews in large codebases (e.g., open source plugins) to vastly upgrade security where human review is impossible.

10. Prioritize Maintenance in Software

Understand that writing code is only the first step; prioritize maintenance as a critical part of the software life cycle to ensure long-term viability and success.

11. Choose Long-Form for Nuance

When discussing complex or controversial topics, prioritize long-form mediums (like podcasts) over short-form social media to provide full context and prevent misinterpretation.

12. Seek Credibility-Weighted Support

Balance negative feedback by seeking support from credible individuals and core community members to maintain a positive, optimistic mindset for great work.

13. Evaluate Companies by Actions

Judge companies or entities by their long-term actions and track record, rather than their stated intentions or labels, to understand their true impact and reliability.

14. Acquire to Accelerate Success

For acquisitions, prioritize accelerating successful products or acquiring talented teams for existing projects, rather than undertaking complex and resource-intensive turnarounds.

15. Be Wary of Complex Turnarounds

Exercise caution with complex business turnarounds, as they are significantly more challenging and resource-intensive than accelerating already successful ventures.

16. Adopt a Barbell Approach to Philanthropy

Address fundamental needs (bottom of Maslow’s hierarchy) while also supporting initiatives that uplift the human spirit, like art, to create a balanced impact.

17. Implement Global Equal Pay

Consider implementing a global compensation strategy that pays the same salaries regardless of location to attract diverse talent and foster equity.

18. Prioritize User Safety Features

Integrate user safety features like an “undo” function (e.g., content revisions) as a critical component of a great product experience, as it is essential for user confidence.

19. Find Artistic Expression

Cultivate a method of artistic expression (e.g., photography, music) for personal fulfillment, especially when other forms become impractical due to lifestyle changes like extensive travel.

20. Work on Diverse Project Stages

To maintain excitement and engagement, work on projects at different stages of maturity, from early-stage development to optimizing established products.

21. Optimize Travel Gear by Weight

When optimizing for travel or efficiency, meticulously weigh and review all items to reduce unnecessary bulk and improve utility.

22. Engage with Community In-Person

Travel extensively to meet and engage with your community in person, especially for distributed teams or global projects, to build stronger connections.

23. Be Vigilant Against Open Source Washing

Actively challenge and correct instances where the term ‘open source’ is used for projects that do not adhere to its true definition, ensuring clarity and integrity in the community.

If the founding fathers were around today, I think there would be open source advocates.

Matt Mullenweg

Don't just build a product, build a movement.

Matt Mullenweg

You can't walk up to Facebook and change their homepage or say, I'd like to change this feature, but you could come to an open source project... and you could actually change, you know, a feature or project management things or change the design or improve it.

Matt Mullenweg

A lie gets around the world seven times before truth has time to, you know, get out of bed.

Matt Mullenweg

If you're really open and open source, sometimes you have to stand up the bullies and you have to fight to protect your open source ideals.

Matt Mullenweg
43%
Percentage of internet websites powered by WordPress WordPress is 10x the size of the next largest platform, Shopify.
$7 billion
Automattic's valuation Parent company of WordPress.com, WooCommerce, Tumblr, etc.
1,700+
Number of Automattic employees Distributed across 90 countries.
18,000
Number of LEDs on the Bay Bridge for the Bay Lights project Part of the original light art piece.
100-150 K
Initial angel investment in the Bay Lights project Provided by Matt Mullenweg to get the project started.
1-1.5 million
Matt Mullenweg's personal donation to finish the Bay Lights project Mortgaged condos to provide the final funding.
10 years
Years the original Bay Lights were online Before technology degraded due to harsh environment.
750 million
Threshold for Llama license requirement Monthly active users, above which a license from Meta is required.
60,000
Number of plugins and themes in the WordPress ecosystem Represents a significant moat for WordPress.
700,000
Number of WordPress installs hosted by WP Engine Before the controversy and customer departures.
200
Number of Gutenberg releases Released every two weeks since its inception.
$1.1 billion
Tumblr's acquisition price by Yahoo In 2013, similar to Instagram's acquisition price by Facebook.
$3 million
Tumblr's acquisition price by Automattic In 2019, after significant value destruction under previous ownership.
15-20 million
Number of monthly active users on Tumblr (at time of acquisition) Over half were under 25, with a significant LGBT+ demographic.
85%
Percentage of Tumblr's user base that is app-based Contrasts with WordPress's primarily desktop/web user base.
$500 million
Automattic's annual recurring revenue (ARR) WooCommerce accounts for the majority of this revenue.
45,000
Number of sites that left WP Engine since September 20th Reducing their total sites to around 600,000.