#06 - D.A. Wallach: music, medicine, cancer screening, and disruptive technologies

Jul 23, 2018 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Peter Attia and D.A. Wallach discuss D.A.'s journey from musician to investor, the evolution of the music industry (MySpace vs. Facebook, Spotify's impact), and the future of medicine. They delve into cancer screening, liquid biopsies, and the potential for a "singularity" in biomedicine.

At a Glance
14 Insights
2h 19m Duration
16 Topics
8 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

D.A. Wallach's Background and Early Music Experiences

Chester French's Formation and Shift to Online Music

MySpace's Role in Artist Discovery and Its Design

Comparing Facebook's and MySpace's Underlying Philosophies

D.A.'s Intellectual Development and Approach to Learning

Musical Influences and Drumming Techniques

Disruption of the Music Industry by Piracy and iTunes

Spotify's Business Model and Artist Compensation

Healthcare's Resistance to Technological Disruption

D.A.'s Vision for a Biomedicine Singularity

Impact and Future of the Human Genome Project

Liquid Biopsies for Early Cancer Detection: Grail's Approach

Glimpse's Nanoparticle-Based Cancer Detection Method

Challenges of Cancer Screening: Sensitivity and Specificity

Future of Personalized Diagnostics and Risk Stratification

Immune System, Inflammation, and Allergy Treatments

Musical Speaking

Singing is essentially a controlled form of musical speaking, where one learns to control pitch and airflow with fine-tuned physical processes. This perspective can make singing easier by reframing it as an extension of natural speech.

Artist's Artist

This term describes a musician whose work primarily resonates with other musicians or those with deep musical understanding, rather than a broad mainstream audience. Chester French was identified as an 'artist's artist' because their fans tended to be musically inclined.

MySpace Top Eight

A feature on MySpace where users could publicly display their eight favorite friends or artists. This became a coveted spot for bands to gain visibility, as being in a famous artist's top eight could lead to significant fan discovery.

Complex Adaptive Systems

A category of systems, including economies, weather, and physiological systems, that share characteristics of complexity and may eventually be described by overarching predictive theories. The Santa Fe Institute is a key organization for studying these systems.

Biomedicine Singularity

D.A. Wallach's vision of a future moment when complex biological systems can be digitally represented and simulated at zero marginal cost. This would allow for rapid, cost-free, intervention-based experiments, profoundly accelerating our understanding of biology and disease.

Synthetic Biomarker (Glimpse)

An engineered nanoparticle designed to be introduced into the body, circulate, and break apart upon encountering specific disease-related enzymes, releasing smaller fragments detectable in urine. This approach aims to generate a larger, more easily detectable signal for early disease, such as cancer.

Needle of Hay in a Haystack

A metaphor used to describe the extreme difficulty of detecting tumor DNA in the blood for early cancer screening. The challenge lies in finding extremely low concentrations of target (tumor) DNA that is genetically very similar to the abundant background (self) DNA.

Swiss Cheese Metaphor (Diagnostics)

A conceptual model for improving diagnostic accuracy by layering multiple imperfect screening tools (like mammograms, DWI MRI, liquid biopsies) and probabilistic risk assessments. Each layer has 'holes' (weaknesses), but when stacked, the holes align less often, increasing overall reliability and reducing false results.

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How can parents encourage musical curiosity in children?

Parents can foster musical curiosity by not negatively sanctioning questions or 'why' questions, and by providing an environment for free exploration, such as allowing a child to experiment at a piano for 30 minutes daily before introducing formal theory.

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Why did MySpace succeed culturally for artists where Facebook initially struggled?

MySpace allowed for viral cultural permeation through features like legal spamming, a 'top eight' friends list that incentivized artist promotion, and extensive user freedom in page design, enabling users to express identity and connect with like-minded communities.

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What was the impact of piracy and iTunes on the music industry?

Piracy decimated the music industry's revenue by allowing free music sharing, while iTunes, pioneered by Steve Jobs, further disrupted it by unilaterally controlling music distribution and becoming the sole dominant retailer, reducing record labels' leverage.

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How does Spotify's payment model work for artists?

Spotify keeps 30% of the monthly subscription fee, with the remaining 70% distributed pro rata to music originators (record labels, publishers, and artists) based on the amount of time a user spends listening to each song.

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Why has the healthcare industry been resistant to technological disruption compared to other sectors?

Healthcare primarily relies on labor, with hospitals and payers having low profit margins, and pharmaceutical companies taking significant financial risk for innovation. Additionally, the industry is fragmented by numerous regulatory bodies, and technology's ability to deliver substantial new dividends beyond existing progress is unclear.

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What is the 'singularity' concept in biomedicine that D.A. Wallach envisions?

D.A. Wallach envisions a moment where complex biological systems can be digitally represented and simulated at zero marginal cost. This would enable rapid, cost-free, intervention-based experiments, profoundly accelerating our understanding of biology and disease.

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What is the current challenge with early cancer detection using liquid biopsies?

The main challenge is finding extremely low concentrations of tumor DNA (a 'needle of hay in a haystack') among self-DNA, and then accurately distinguishing between aggressive cancers and preclinical tumors that the immune system might naturally clear.

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What is the difference between sensitivity and specificity in diagnostic tests?

Sensitivity refers to a test's ability to correctly identify those with the disease (true positives), while specificity refers to its ability to correctly identify those without the disease (true negatives). A test with high sensitivity but low specificity can still be a poor test, as it might incorrectly identify many healthy individuals as having the disease.

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Why were mammography guidelines changed to recommend against screening for women under 40?

The change was due to the statistics of false positives. Even with a 73% sensitivity, a positive mammogram for a woman in the general population (with a low incidence of breast cancer) still results in a sub-1% chance of actually having breast cancer, leading to unnecessary follow-up tests and anxiety.

1. Adopt Bayesian Thinking for Diagnostics

Understand that the utility of a medical screening test depends on your prior probability of having a disease (e.g., genetic risk). A positive test result updates your likelihood, but its significance varies greatly based on your initial risk, not just the test’s sensitivity.

2. Prioritize Test Specificity

When evaluating diagnostic tests, prioritize high negative predictive value (specificity) to avoid false negatives, meaning you never want someone with cancer to be told they don’t have it. You can tolerate some false positives (people without cancer told they do) if the follow-up is manageable.

3. Layer Diagnostic Tests Strategically

Combine different screening tools, like mammography, DWI MRI, and future liquid biopsies, to leverage each test’s strengths and weaknesses. Use liquid biopsies as confirmation rather than leading candidates, especially for conditions requiring invasive follow-up.

4. Focus on Theoretical Frameworks

When encountering a new subject, prioritize understanding its theoretical framework or ‘skeleton’ rather than getting lost in details. This approach helps grasp the underlying structure and how things work.

5. Nurture Children’s Curiosity

Instead of teaching curiosity, focus on not stifling it, as children are born with it. Avoid sanctioning questions or ‘why’ questions to foster an environment where their natural inclination to understand is fed, not suppressed.

6. Balance Rote Practice with Exploration

When learning an instrument or any skill, start by playing around and exploring without a rigid framework before introducing theory. Theory becomes an ‘amazing gift’ that answers questions you’ve already encountered through exploration, rather than an imprisoning set of rules.

7. View Technical Skill as More Colors

Embrace learning technical skills in any creative field, as they provide ‘more colors to paint with’ and expand expressive options without diminishing authenticity. It doesn’t cost anything to gain more ways to articulate your ideas.

8. Develop Singing as Musical Speaking

Approach singing by thinking of it as ‘musical speaking,’ controlling pitch deliberately. This mental reframing can make learning to sing easier and improve vocal control, similar to how physical activities are mastered.

9. Prioritize Preventable Suffering

Focus efforts and investments on reducing suffering from preventable diseases and conditions that afflict people prematurely or in the second half of life. This pragmatic approach addresses immediate human health challenges.

10. Evaluate Tech: Short-Term Over, Long-Term Under

When assessing new technologies like genomics or blockchain, recognize that their short-term impact is often overestimated, while their long-term, transformative potential is frequently underestimated. Focus on the collective intelligence and effort being directed towards the technology.

11. Advocate for Rapid Standard of Care

Physicians and the community should actively work to streamline the process by which definitive scientific advancements, like new medical treatments, become standard of care for all patients everywhere, overcoming bureaucratic hurdles.

12. Encourage Drumming for Kids

For children learning drums, emphasize that they don’t necessarily need to know musical material as well as other instrumentalists. As long as they can quickly learn or figure out a beat, they can play along, which can make it more enjoyable and less practice-intensive.

13. Connect with D.A. Wallach

If you are a ‘genius’ or have an interesting, novel idea that could be deemed genius, reach out to D.A. Wallach via his Twitter (@DAWallach), Instagram (@DAWallach), or website (DAWallach.com).

14. Listen to ‘Time Machine’ Album

Explore D.A. Wallach’s music by listening to his most recent solo album, ‘Time Machine,’ which was released around 2016.

The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed.

D.A. Wallach (attributing it to venture capitalists)

Singing is just a musical speaking.

D.A. Wallach

It's just going to give you more colors to paint with. It doesn't cost you anything. It just, it just gives you more things that you can say with those ideas you've got.

Herbie Hancock (as quoted by D.A. Wallach)

Facebook is a little bit totalitarian, not necessarily in a bad way... it doesn't have a lot of flavor.

D.A. Wallach

By the time cancer becomes visible on an imaging study, you can make the case you've lost the war.

Peter Attia

The number one risk factor for all diseases is age.

D.A. Wallach

The pithy aphorism that I think applies to genomics and a lot of things in technology is that it is probably short-term overestimated and long-term underestimated.

D.A. Wallach

You never want someone who has cancer to be told they don't have cancer. You can tolerate some people who don't have cancer being told that they do.

D.A. Wallach
Quarter of its former size
Music industry size reduction Occurred in the 1990s due to piracy.
$10
Spotify monthly subscription cost Allows access to 22 million songs.
30%
Spotify/Apple revenue split Percentage kept by the platform (Spotify/Apple) from subscription/download revenue.
70%
Record label/publisher/artist revenue split Percentage distributed to record labels, publishers, and artists from subscription/download revenue.
Roughly 10% of their 70% share
Record label payout to music publisher Equivalent to approximately 7% of the total revenue.
15-20%
Artist payout from record label Percentage of what's left after the label has recouped all money spent promoting the artist.
3-4%
Kaiser Permanente gross margin Example of an integrated payer-provider's profitability in California.
Potentially 10%
Fetal DNA in maternal peripheral blood Concentration used in non-invasive prenatal screening.
Sub-half percent or sub-tenth of a percent
Tumor DNA concentration in blood (early cancer) Extremely low concentrations targeted by liquid biopsies for early cancer detection.
550 different types
Endoproteases in human genome Enzymes utilized in tissue remodeling, including early cancer formation.
99.4% likelihood
Oncoblot accuracy for cancer type identification Accuracy in correctly guessing not just cancer presence, but also the specific type of cancer, for patients with existing cancer.
Approximately 5X
Oncoblot overestimation of cancer prevalence Observed overestimation of cancer prevalence in non-cancerous populations, suggesting detection of preclinical tumors.
1 in 700
Incidence of breast cancer in general population Expected rate of breast cancer in the wild population.
73%
Mammogram sensitivity The probability that a mammogram will correctly identify breast cancer if it is present.