#117 - Stanley Perlman, M.D., Ph.D.: Insights from a coronavirus expert on COVID-19
Dr. Stanley Perlman, Professor of Microbiology, Immunology, and Pediatrics, discusses coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-1 and MERS. He compares them to SARS-CoV-2, exploring durable immunity, therapeutic strategies, and future pandemic preparedness.
Deep Dive Analysis
15 Topic Outline
Stanley Perlman's Background and Entry into Virology
The Coronavirus Family: Definition, Structure, and Diversity
Evolutionary Purpose and Animal Hosts of Viruses
Understanding Endemic Human Coronaviruses Pre-SARS
The Emergence and Impact of the 2002-2003 SARS Outbreak
The 2012 MERS Outbreak: Origins, Transmission, and Lethality
Comparing SARS-CoV-2 to SARS-1 and MERS
Long-Term Health Impacts for COVID-19 Survivors
Pandemic Preparedness: Lessons from Past Outbreaks
Immune Response to Common Cold Coronaviruses
Herd Immunity Explained in the Context of SARS-CoV-2
Genetic Drift and Immune Evasion in Coronaviruses
Cross-Reactive T-Cell Responses from Other Coronaviruses
Therapeutic Strategies and Biomarkers for COVID-19
Durability of Immune Response and Vaccine Implications
6 Key Concepts
Coronavirus Family
Coronaviruses are categorized by their appearance under an electron microscope, their replication strategy, and genetic relatedness. This family includes viruses that infect a wide range of species, from chickens and pigs to humans and bats, but they are very diverse in their specific hosts and disease outcomes.
R-naught (R0)
R-naught is a measure of a virus's transmissibility, indicating the average number of people a single infected individual will infect. A higher R-naught means a virus spreads more rapidly through a susceptible population, leading to exponential growth in cases.
Case Fatality Rate (CFR)
CFR refers to the proportion of confirmed cases of a disease that result in death. It can be misleading if the total number of infected individuals (including asymptomatic or mild cases) is unknown, as it only considers diagnosed cases rather than all infections.
Nosocomial Spread
This term refers to the spread of infection within a hospital or healthcare setting. Viruses like SARS and MERS, which often cause severe lung disease requiring hospitalization and invasive procedures, can have a significantly higher R-naught in such environments due to close contact and aerosol-generating treatments.
Herd Immunity
Herd immunity is achieved when a sufficient percentage of a population becomes immune to a disease, either through vaccination or prior infection, thereby protecting susceptible individuals by making it difficult for the virus to spread. The required threshold for herd immunity is directly related to the virus's R-naught.
Genetic Drift
Genetic drift refers to the accumulation of small mutations in a virus's genetic material over time, which can lead to changes in its surface proteins (antigens). This can make previously acquired immunity or existing vaccines less effective if the immune system no longer recognizes the altered virus.
11 Questions Answered
Stanley Perlman initially trained in cell biology, developmental biology, and virology, then went to medical school, becoming interested in pediatrics and infectious diseases. His research focused on how viruses interact with the brain, leading him to study coronaviruses in mice as a model for demyelination, similar to multiple sclerosis.
Coronaviruses are named for the crown-like or sun-like projections (corona) on their surface when viewed under an electron microscope. This distinctive appearance led early researchers to assign the name based on this visual characteristic.
The R-naught for SARS was estimated to be about two to three, meaning one infected person would typically infect two to three others. However, this average was misleading, as spread occurred much more readily within hospitals, especially during procedures that aerosolized lung fluids.
MERS did not cause a widespread epidemic because its human-to-human R-naught was very low, estimated between 0.35 and 0.5 outside of hospitals. This poor ability to spread between people, even with a high case fatality rate, made it relatively easy to contain, with most transmission occurring in healthcare settings.
The SARS outbreak was eradicated due to a combination of factors: there was no animal reservoir continuously reintroducing the virus to humans, and infected individuals were typically not contagious until they became symptomatic. This allowed for effective identification and quarantine of sick individuals, stopping the chain of transmission.
SARS-CoV-2 is described as a mixture of a common cold coronavirus and SARS/MERS in the lungs, allowing it to infect both the upper airway and the lungs. This upper airway infection contributes to its high transmissibility, even from asymptomatic individuals, unlike SARS-1 and MERS which primarily caused deep lung disease and were less contagious until severe symptoms appeared.
While not fully understood, survivors of severe COVID-19, like those from SARS and MERS, may experience lingering issues such as reduced lung function or cognitive dysfunction. These impacts could be due to permanent tissue damage, prolonged critical illness (e.g., ventilator use), or even immune-mediated neurological effects, even if the virus isn't directly found in the brain.
The exact reasons for reinfection with common cold coronaviruses are not fully understood, but it's known that the antibody response to these viruses wanes over time, often within a year. Specific antibodies like IgA also decline, and the role of T-cell responses in long-term immunity to these mild infections is not well-established.
So far, there is no strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 is undergoing significant genetic drift that would make a vaccine ineffective or prevent protection from a previous infection. While some coronaviruses like OC43 show variation, SARS-CoV-2 has not yet demonstrated changes that would fundamentally alter its immune recognition.
Some studies suggest that people who have never been exposed to SARS-CoV-2 may have a T-cell response to it, potentially due to cross-reactivity from common cold coronaviruses. However, these findings are preliminary, often based on activation markers rather than direct killing function, and the homology between the T-cell targets is not always clear, so the importance of this cross-reactivity is still under investigation.
The ideal strategy for treating COVID-19 would involve a phased approach: antiviral therapy (like remdesivir or an oral form) early in the infection to stop viral replication, followed by immune modulators later in the disease course to address an overactive immune response. This approach requires better biomarkers to identify disease stages and tailor therapy effectively.
12 Actionable Insights
1. Invest in Pandemic Preparedness
Governments should invest in national stockpiles of PPE, electronic infrastructure for contact tracing, and reagents for rapid serologic and PCR testing as ’no regret moves’ to prepare for future pandemics. This allows for immediate, large-scale testing and mitigation efforts.
2. Stockpile Immune Modulating Drugs
Establish a large national stockpile of immune-modulating drugs, as many infectious diseases involve an overactive immune response, making this a crucial therapeutic preparedness measure. This strategy is more general than specific antivirals, which may be virus-specific.
3. Implement Phased Disease Treatment
Adopt a sophisticated, phased therapeutic strategy for infectious diseases: early treatment should focus on antivirals and immune amplifiers, while later stages, characterized by hyperactivated immune responses, should utilize immune modulators and respiratory support. This approach tailors treatment to disease progression.
4. Develop Biomarkers for Disease Stages
Invest in developing biomarkers to identify different stages of disease and predict progression, enabling personalized and modulated therapy. This is an ideal application for machine learning, combining biomarker data with epidemiological factors to guide treatment decisions.
5. Monitor Disease Progression with Serial Testing
Implement serial testing (e.g., every couple of days) to monitor patient markers and feed data into machine learning models. This approach could identify individuals at risk of severe disease, allowing for timely and targeted interventions like antivirals or immune activators.
6. Research Immunity Durability & Shedding
Prioritize research into the durability of immune responses to viruses, particularly how long immunity protects against severe disease versus preventing viral shedding and transmissibility. This knowledge is crucial for vaccine strategies and public health planning, as it impacts societal protection.
7. Conduct Human Challenge Studies
To understand immunity waning and transmissibility, conduct human challenge studies where volunteers are infected with a common cold coronavirus, and then reinfected later to measure cold symptoms and the extent of viral shedding. This helps determine if reduced shedding is sufficient to prevent spread.
8. Plan for Viral Coexistence
Recognize that some viruses, like SARS-CoV-2, may never be eradicated, necessitating a societal shift in mindset and planning towards long-term coexistence rather than elimination. This involves understanding how to manage the virus if it becomes a common cold.
9. Evaluate Vaccine Risk-Benefit
Thoroughly evaluate the risk-benefit profile of vaccines, especially for new viruses, considering that some vaccines (e.g., RSV) are harder to develop safely. This requires a careful cost-benefit analysis before widespread implementation, as risks can vary.
10. Address Vaccine Acceptance
Public health strategies must proactively address and understand public willingness to be vaccinated, as vaccine acceptance is a critical factor in achieving widespread immunity. This is an important consideration for the success of any vaccination campaign.
11. Deepen Immune System Knowledge
To truly understand viruses and their impact, educate yourself thoroughly on the immune system, including innate, adaptive, humoral (B cells, antibodies), and cellular (T cells) components. This foundational knowledge is essential for comprehending viral dynamics.
12. Prioritize Immunology Podcast
Listen to the David Watkins podcast before this one to get a foundational understanding of immunology, which will help in understanding the coronavirus discussion. This sequential listening provides necessary context for complex topics.
5 Key Quotes
Everybody is an armchair coronavirus expert now, but you actually want to talk to the guy who was studying coronaviruses before they were sexy. And that's Stanley.
Peter Attia
The genetic information of a coronavirus is about four times that of the polio virus. And yet the virus doesn't seem to do that much more than polio virus.
Stanley Perlman
If you take the transmissibility of that, which is both, and primarily is a factor of the fact that it can spread before you're symptomatic, coupled with the actual pathology of MERS, which I want to contrast with these viruses, I mean, that's a double whammy. You can really get into a dangerous situation.
Peter Attia
I think about this as SARS-CoV-2 being a mixture of the common cold coronavirus and then a mix of plus either SARS or MERS coronavirus in the lungs. So that's why you have the transmissibility and the severe disease because it does both.
Stanley Perlman
The doomsday scenario would be a virus that retains its virulence, but constantly drifts enough genetically that your immune system never recognizes it again, but it retains all of its bad properties. I mean, that's a disaster.
Peter Attia