#182 - David Nutt: Psychedelics & Recreational Drugs
Professor David Nutt, a psychiatrist & neuroscientist, discusses a framework for assessing drug harm, contrasting alcohol, opiates, cocaine, & meth with psychedelics. He highlights psychedelics' therapeutic potential for addiction & depression, despite regulatory challenges.
Deep Dive Analysis
18 Topic Outline
Early Interest in the Brain and Path to Psychiatry
Transition to Neuropsychopharmacology and UK Drug Policy
Framework for Assessing Drug Harms: Multi-Criteria Decision Analysis
Ranking Drugs by Aggregate Harm: Alcohol, Opiates, Cocaine, Meth
Comparison of Tobacco and Alcohol: Harms, Benefits, and Social Context
US Drug Policy, Cannabis Prohibition, and Research Limitations
The Opioid Crisis: Causes, Fentanyl, and Potential Solutions
Ibogaine: Potential for Opioid Addiction Treatment and Risks
Neurobiology of Addiction and Default Mode Network Disruption
Cocaine: Mechanism of Action, Risks, and 'State vs. Trait' Framework
Methamphetamine: Mechanism of Action, Neurotoxicity, and Historical Use
Psychedelics (LSD, Psilocybin, MDMA) and Schedule I Classification
History of LSD Research, Therapeutic Potential, and Political Ban
Psilocybin: History, Cultural Use, and UK Legal Status Changes
MDMA: Origins, Therapeutic Use, and Misrepresentation
Ketamine: Mechanism, Use in Treatment-Resistant Depression, and Risks
Psilocybin vs. Escitalopram for Depression: Study Design and Findings
Microdosing Psychedelics: Efficacy, Challenges, and Future Research
6 Key Concepts
Multi-Criteria Decision Analysis (for drug harms)
A framework for transparently and reliably rating the harms of different drugs, considering 16 distinct parameters: nine harms to the user and seven harms to society. Each drug is scaled on these parameters, and a weighting is applied to aggregate the overall harm.
Default Mode Network (DMN)
A network in the brain that represents the main sense of self, encoding referential memories, plans, and self-related thoughts. Psychedelics are thought to disrupt this network, potentially breaking down over-learned patterns of negative thinking or compulsive drug-seeking behavior.
Cocaethylene
A drug formed in the body when cocaine and alcohol are mixed. It is longer-acting and more cardiotoxic than cocaine itself, increasing the risks associated with combined use.
Tachyphylaxis
A phenomenon where the same amount of a medication produces a lesser and lesser effect over time, or when an increasing amount of medication is required to produce the same effect.
Serotonin 1A Receptor (5-HT1A)
A specific subtype of serotonin receptor highly expressed in the limbic system. SSRIs (like escitalopram) enhance serotonin in this system, blocking the stress response and allowing the limbic system to recover from depression.
Cortical Processing (in depression)
The brain activity in the cortex responsible for complex thought, including persistent ruminations and negative thoughts characteristic of depression. Psychedelics are believed to disrupt this processing, allowing individuals to break free from these entrenched patterns.
14 Questions Answered
David Nutt's interest began in early childhood, realizing that thinking came from the brain. He pursued brain science, moving from physiology to neurology, and finally to psychiatry, which he found 'wonderful' for observing every aspect of the brain.
Historically, every British drug law until 2016 was made at the behest of the US, with America largely defining and politically driving global drug policy since the 1930s.
Alcohol is consistently ranked as the most harmful drug overall due to its significant social impact and widespread use. For harm to the user, opiates, crack cocaine, and crystal meth are the most harmful.
One theory suggests alcohol's legality stems from its powerful pro-social effects and long history of cultural celebration, unlike cannabis which is not traditionally seen as a social drug. Another perspective points to historical disinformation campaigns against cannabis driven by the alcohol industry and drug enforcement agencies.
The crisis resulted from a perfect storm of excessive prescription of strong opioid painkillers, their diversion into society, and then a sudden stop in prescribing which drove dependent individuals to the black market. This led to the rise of potent and cheap fentanyls. Solutions include widespread drug testing to identify fentanyls and safer treatments for chronic pain like medical cannabis.
Ibogaine is thought to disrupt the over-learned, persistent patterns of over-attention and enhanced desire for drugs by 'shaking up' the brain, potentially breaking down habit circuits and allowing individuals to escape addiction.
Cocaine works by releasing dopamine and noradrenaline in the brain, providing energy, drive, focus, and purpose, followed by a severe crash. Risks include cardiac effects, paranoia, withdrawal symptoms, and the formation of cocaethylene when mixed with alcohol, which is more cardiotoxic.
Methamphetamine is similar to cocaine but longer-acting, pushing the dopamine system to depletion, which can lock users into a state where they can't function normally without the drug. There is less good evidence of cortical damage with modern use, but it definitely distorts dopamine pathways, affecting motivation and executive function.
Psychedelics were banned for political and social reasons, not due to inherent harms. The rise of the anti-Vietnam War hippie movement, fueled by LSD, was seen as a threat to the American way of life, leading to their vilification and subsequent ban despite extensive positive research.
Before its ban, 40,000 patients were studied, and 1,000 papers published on LSD, showing it was very safe, reduced suicide rates, and was effective in various therapeutic contexts, including alcoholism, without causing psychosis.
Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic used off-label for depression, with effects lasting a few days. Esketamine is a patented enantiomer of ketamine, formulated for nasal inhalation (Spravato), licensed for treatment-resistant depression, and used a couple of times a week with less risk of tachyphylaxis.
Heavy recreational use of ketamine (e.g., grams daily) can lead to serious problems, including severe chronic cystitis that may cause bladder atrophy requiring resection, and a state of severe cognitive impairment that can mimic schizophrenia.
In a comparative study, psilocybin was found to be non-inferior to escitalopram on the primary mood measure at six weeks. Psilocybin performed better on other measures like well-being and sexual dysfunction, suggesting it may offer similar antidepressant benefits without the blunting side effects of SSRIs.
While anecdotal reports suggest benefits, there has never been a proper, controlled, repeated microdosing study of any psychedelic due to regulatory hurdles and high costs. It is plausible that microdosing over a long period might protect against a lowering of mood, but its efficacy in elevating mood in depressed individuals is unknown.
12 Actionable Insights
1. Consider Psilocybin for Depression
Psilocybin, administered in a therapeutic setting, showed efficacy comparable to escitalopram (Lexapro) for depression, but with potentially fewer side effects, particularly regarding sexual dysfunction and emotional blunting, by disrupting negative thought patterns rather than broadly dampening the limbic system.
2. Test Black Market Drugs for Fentanyl
To combat the opioid crisis, allow individuals to test black market drugs for fentanyl to prevent accidental overdose, and advocate for safer treatments like medical cannabis for chronic pain.
3. Explore Ibogaine for Opioid Addiction
Ibogaine shows promise in treating opioid addiction by disrupting habit circuits, but it should be administered in a controlled medical setting with cardiac monitoring due to potential cardiac risks, and ideally not during acute withdrawal.
4. Evaluate Drugs by 16 Harms
Assess drugs using a multi-criteria decision analysis that considers 9 harms to the user (e.g., acute/chronic toxicity, dependence) and 7 harms to society (e.g., economic, family damage) to transparently and reliably rate their overall impact.
5. Assess Drugs: Risk vs. Trait Change
When considering drug use, evaluate two factors: the physical risk to the individual and whether the drug can alter a positive trait (improve life off the drug) or merely alter a temporary state.
6. Avoid Cocaine: High Risk, No Trait Benefit
Cocaine carries non-trivial physical risks, including cardiac toxicity and potential for dependence, and does not offer long-term trait alteration benefits, making its use generally ill-advised.
7. Ketamine for Depression: Mind Dosage
Ketamine can be effective for treatment-resistant depression, but recreational or daily use should be avoided due to risks of tachyphylaxis, severe cognitive impairment, and bladder damage; twice-weekly use appears safer in a clinical setting.
8. Space Out Psychedelic Doses
To avoid tachyphylaxis, which causes diminishing effects, allow at least one to two weeks between psychedelic doses, as repeated daily use quickly renders them ineffective.
9. MDMA for Empathy in Therapy
MDMA, an empathogen, can be useful in psychotherapy and couples counseling to foster clarity of thought, warmth, and empathy, potentially breaking down psychological resistance and improving relationships.
10. Implement Recreational Drug Harm Reduction
For recreational drug use in social settings, ensure access to free water and ‘chill out rooms’ to mitigate harms like dehydration and hypothermia, as demonstrated by historical ecstasy harm reduction policies.
11. Recognize Social Factors in Addiction
Understand that social factors and coping with life stress are hugely important reasons why people use drugs and develop addiction, which can inform more empathetic and effective prevention and treatment approaches.
12. Share Podcast Thoughts & Topics
Listeners are encouraged to provide feedback on their thoughts and suggest topics for future episodes to help guide deeper discussions.
7 Key Quotes
America defined drug policy. It started in 1934 with the attack on, you know, the liberalization of drinking and the attack on cannabis. And it continued. And I mean, of course, the big inflection was when Nixon decided that the war on drugs was actually a better vote getter than the war in Vietnam. So he switched people's attention to drugs. And the world has been fighting a war on drugs, largely funded, but certainly politically driven by America since then.
David Nutt
The real paradox of doing this really in-depth multi-criteria decision analysis is it turns out that the drugs that have been most vilified and which we've been taught are the most dangerous turn out to be the least dangerous.
David Nutt
The only time I felt whole was on heroin.
Tatum O'Neill (quoted by David Nutt)
The second component to my framework is, is this a drug that only alters your state or does it have the potential to alter a trait? ... if a drug can only alter your state, but it has no potential to really alter your traits, i.e. how you behave off the drug, is it worth it?
Peter Attia
LSD was banned for political and social reasons. No, not because of any harms.
David Nutt
It's the worst censorship of research in the history of the world.
David Nutt
It's blunting the top and the bottom.
Peter Attia
1 Protocols
Reducing Harms from Ecstasy in Clubs (UK Legislation/Recommendations)
David Nutt- Clubs serving drinks must serve free water to patrons.
- Clubs should provide 'chill-out rooms' where individuals can cool down and rest.