#189 - COVID-19: Current state of affairs, Omicron, and a search for the end game

Jan 3, 2022 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Drs. Marty Makary and Zubin Damania join Peter Attia to discuss the Omicron variant, vaccine risks/benefits, natural immunity, and the poor messaging surrounding COVID-19. They explore the difference between science and advocacy, the erosion of trust, and the path to an "end" to the pandemic.

At a Glance
26 Insights
2h 45m Duration
20 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Understanding Omicron: Virulence and Transmission Compared to Delta

Immunity Measurement: Beyond Circulating Antibodies to T-Cells

Defining the COVID-19 End Game and Return to Normalcy

COVID-19 Policy Framework and the Problem of Groupthink

Distinguishing Science from Advocacy in Public Health Messaging

Evidence and Policy on Naturally Acquired Immunity

Erosion of Trust in Science Despite Rapid Progress

Evaluating Current Mandates and Policies with Existing Data

Vaccine Risks: Myocarditis and Labeling Concerns

Myocarditis Incidence: Pfizer vs. Moderna in Young People

Booster Risk-Reward and Policy Divergence

Lack of Honesty and Humility from Public Officials

Rationale for Widespread COVID-19 Testing

The Missing Endpoint: What Defines the Pandemic's Conclusion?

Downstream Consequences of Lockdowns and Draconian Policies

Tribalism and Polarization in the COVID-19 Discussion

Lessons from Past Pandemics and Future Preparedness

Parental Strategies for Unreasonable School Policies

Identifying Voices of Reason and Independent Thinkers

The Value of Holding Strong Convictions Loosely

Science vs. Advocacy

Science is a messy, uncertain, and evolving process that speaks in probabilities, constantly changing with new information. Advocacy, conversely, communicates with complete certainty, often simplifying complex scientific nuances to promote a specific policy or action.

T-cell Immunity

A crucial, often under-recognized, component of the immune system that provides robust and long-lasting protection against severe illness from COVID-19 variants like Omicron and Delta, even as antibody levels wane. It is difficult to measure with commonly available tests.

Natural Immunity

The protection acquired after recovering from a COVID-19 infection, which studies suggest is reliable and long-lasting against reinfection and severe disease. This immunity is often based in the local mucosal area, potentially offering different protection than systemic vaccine immunity.

Groupthink in Medicine

A phenomenon where a small, non-diverse group of politically appointed individuals make decisions, leading to a vacuum of scientific research, suppression of dissenting opinions, and flawed policies based on foregone conclusions rather than evolving data.

Peacetime vs. Wartime Vaccine Communication

Peacetime communication emphasizes vaccine absolutism, minimizing discussion of risks for community benefit. Wartime communication, however, faces uncertainty, changing data, and stratified risks/benefits, yet often applies the same absolutist approach, leading to mistrust.

Alt Middle

A 'synthesis position' that seeks truth by integrating various perspectives, rather than adhering to extreme, polarized viewpoints. It involves critical thinking and a willingness to question one's own beliefs, fostering common sense and understanding.

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How does Omicron differ from Delta?

Omicron is about 90% less efficient at replicating in lung cells, leading to milder symptoms (more upper respiratory) and less severe disease, confirmed by lab, epidemiological, and bedside data.

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Is COVID-19 likely to become a seasonal coronavirus?

Yes, it is postulated that COVID-19, particularly with variants like Omicron, may become the fifth seasonal coronavirus, similar to how the Russian flu of 1889-1891 may have evolved into one of the four existing seasonal coronaviruses.

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Why is there such a strong focus on antibody levels for immunity?

Public health officials have fixated on antibody titers because they are easily measurable, leading to a scenario where the immune system's broader cellular immunity (memory B-cells and T-cells) is undervalued, and a constant chase for high antibody levels through boosters is created.

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What is the 'end game' for COVID-19 policy?

There is no clear, articulated end game from public health officials, leading to an ongoing cycle of restrictions and mandates based on case numbers rather than severe outcomes, without a defined strategy for returning to pre-pandemic life.

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What is known about naturally acquired immunity to COVID-19?

Multiple studies, including a large Israeli population study, suggest that natural immunity is robust and long-lasting, providing significant protection against reinfection and severe disease, potentially more so than vaccinated immunity in some contexts.

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Why has trust in science eroded during the pandemic?

Trust has eroded due to the blurring of lines between science and advocacy, suppression of scientific discussion, academic bullying, inconsistent messaging, and a lack of honesty and humility from top officials, particularly regarding topics like natural immunity and gain-of-function research.

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What are the risks of mRNA vaccines, particularly for young people?

mRNA vaccines, especially Moderna, carry a risk of myocarditis or myopericarditis, particularly in young males aged 15-25, with rates as high as 1 in 7,600 after the second dose. While often mild, the long-term effects are not fully known, and this risk needs to be weighed against the ultra-rare risk of severe COVID-19 in healthy children.

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Does widespread COVID-19 testing still make sense?

Widespread asymptomatic testing for COVID-19, especially with antigen tests, may cause more harm than good by creating stress, unnecessary quarantines, and financial burdens, without significantly impacting transmission of highly contagious variants like Omicron. Testing should primarily be used when it changes patient management, such as for symptomatic high-risk individuals who could benefit from therapeutics.

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What are the downstream consequences of lockdowns and draconian policies?

Lockdowns and stringent policies have led to significant negative downstream consequences, including a mental health crisis in children (e.g., 51% increase in self-harm admissions in young women), reduced cognitive performance in children born during the pandemic, and a potential decline in routine childhood vaccination rates.

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Who are some voices of reason regarding COVID-19?

Dr. Monica Gandhi (UCSF), Dr. Amesh Adalja (Johns Hopkins), Dr. Martin Kulldorff (Brownstone Institute), Dr. John Mandrola (EP doc), and David Katz (Yale) are mentioned as rational, data-driven voices who advocate for a holistic perspective and are willing to change their opinions based on new evidence.

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What can parents do if their children are subject to unreasonable school policies?

Parents should demand clear endpoints to restrictions, question the rationale for mandates (e.g., booster mandates for low-risk children), and engage in nuanced discussions with pediatricians about vaccination strategies, such as considering a single dose of Pfizer or acknowledging natural immunity.

1. Prioritize Self-Awareness and Inner Peace

Focus energy on self-awareness and managing your internal state, recognizing that external frustrations often reflect internal conflicts. Limit exposure to negative influences like social media (e.g., Twitter) that hack dopamine drives and contribute to discomfort, as this can improve personal well-being and longevity.

2. Practice Humility and Honesty

In interactions, particularly when errors occur, prioritize humility and honesty by acknowledging mistakes and explaining what could be done differently. This approach builds trust and can prevent negative outcomes, even more so than the severity of the error itself.

3. Value Adaptability in Beliefs

Trust individuals who demonstrate an ability to change their opinions and adapt their beliefs in the face of new information, rather than those who rigidly adhere to the same stance regardless of evolving data. Embrace the mantra of ‘strong convictions loosely held.’

4. Differentiate Science and Advocacy

Understand that science is a messy, uncertain, probabilistic process that evolves with new information, whereas advocacy often communicates with complete certainty. Recognizing this distinction is crucial for interpreting public health messages and avoiding the blurring of these lines.

5. Combat Tribalism with Openness

Actively combat tribalism by being a role model: listen to others, admit when you are wrong, and avoid echo chambers that reinforce extreme views. Foster open discussion and diverse opinions to navigate complex issues.

6. Assume Good Intent in Others

Cultivate the practice of assuming good intent in others, especially those with differing views. This approach can help overcome tribal tendencies to villainize out-groups, level the playing ground for constructive conversation, and reduce personal anger.

7. Evaluate Policy Holistically

When considering public health policies, evaluate them from a holistic, integral perspective, focusing on broader societal well-being (e.g., preventing deaths, avoiding hospital overwhelm, economic function, mental health) rather than a reductionist focus solely on preventing cases.

8. Seek Diverse, Independent Voices

To find reliable and rational information, seek out diverse, independent voices in the medical community (e.g., Monica Gandhi, Amish Adalja, Martin Kulldorff, John Mandrola, David Katz) and be wary of information from politically appointed physicians or those with strong political angles.

9. Acknowledge Natural Immunity

Recognize that naturally acquired immunity to COVID-19 is a real phenomenon that generates good protection against reinfection and severe disease, and individuals with natural immunity should feel confident in their immune protection.

10. Risk-Stratify COVID Treatment

Tailor COVID-19 treatment and prevention strategies based on individual risk factors, age, and health status, as a one-size-fits-all approach can lead to overuse of interventions in low-risk populations.

11. Explore COVID Therapeutics

If you contract COVID-19, discuss with your doctor evidence-based therapeutics like fluvoxamine (reduces mortality by 91%), budesonide (steroid inhaler, reduces hospitalization), and hypertonic saline (nasal rinse), as these are often underutilized. Note that supplemental Vitamin D has weaker correlative evidence.

12. Rethink Widespread Asymptomatic Testing

Question the utility of widespread asymptomatic testing for respiratory viruses, as there’s little precedent for tracking infection rates outside of morbidity and mortality. Only order a test if the result will directly change patient management.

13. Question Mandates for Low-Risk

Critically question mandates (e.g., boosters, quarantines) for low-risk populations like healthy college students, especially when their personal risk is low and professors/community members have access to their own protective measures.

14. Demand Policy Endpoints

If you are subject to public health restrictions, especially in schools, demand clear endpoints and criteria for their removal. Policies should not be implemented indefinitely without defined conditions for their cessation.

15. Manage Respiratory Pathogens Responsibly

Adopt reasonable strategies for living with respiratory pathogens: be careful around vulnerable individuals, wear a mask if you suspect exposure, and stay home if you have symptoms. This approach acknowledges their endemic nature without creating mass hysteria.

16. Prioritize Lifestyle for Health

Incorporate lifestyle modifications such as diet, exercise, and addressing metabolic syndrome as foundational strategies to improve overall health and potentially reduce vulnerability to infections.

17. Focus Beyond Antibody Titers

Understand that an intense fixation on only antibody titers for immune strength can be misleading, as antibodies naturally wane over months. Cellular immunity (memory B-cells and T-cells) is also crucial for preventing severe illness and should be considered for a more complete picture of immunity.

18. Rethink Frequent Boosters

Given that booster efficacy against symptomatic COVID can wane significantly within 10 weeks (e.g., to 35-45% for mRNA vaccines), and cellular immunity still protects against severe illness, constantly chasing high antibody titers with frequent boosters may not be an effective long-term strategy.

19. Space Out Vaccine Doses

Consider spacing out the first and second doses of mRNA vaccines as much as possible, as some immunologists suggest this could be more beneficial for immune response and potentially reduce the need for vigorous booster campaigns.

20. Evaluate Vaccine Risk for Young Males

Parents of young males (15-25) should be aware of the myocarditis risk associated with mRNA vaccines, particularly Moderna (potentially 3-5 times higher than Pfizer), with rates around 1 in 7,600 after the second dose. This warrants a nuanced discussion with pediatricians, especially given the ultra-rare death rate from COVID in healthy children.

21. Align with Global Health Guidance

Consider international health guidance, such as the WHO’s recommendation against universal booster programs (to avoid prolonging the pandemic and increasing inequities) and their advice against masking children under six, or the European CDC’s stance on primary school masking.

22. Question Perpetual Boosters

Be critical of the potential shift towards perpetual or annual booster recommendations, especially if the language changes to ‘up to date’ like software, and consider the long-term utility of frequent boosting for mild illnesses.

23. Beware Anecdotal Amplification

Be cautious of anecdotes, especially when amplified online, as they can distort data and influence fear and policy decisions. Prioritize well-designed scientific studies to understand true risks and probabilities.

24. Acquire Vitamin D Naturally

Instead of relying solely on supplemental Vitamin D, prioritize getting outside, exercising, and acquiring Vitamin D naturally through sun exposure, as the evidence for supplemental Vitamin D improving COVID outcomes is weaker and correlative.

25. Avoid Hospitalization When Possible

Recognize that hospitalization inherently carries risks due to medical errors, infections, and complications. Prioritize strategies to stay out of the hospital whenever safely possible.

26. Distinguish Fact from Opinion

When consuming information, especially on complex topics like health, actively differentiate between what is presented as fact or knowable data and what is personal opinion. This helps in critically evaluating the information received.

Omicron is not infecting lung cells... it's about 90% less efficient in replicating in those lung cells. This is a more mild virus.

Marty Makary

Omicron may be nature's vaccine.

Marty Makary

Always know the difference between science and advocacy.

Peter Attia

This is probably the greatest lesson we should learn from the pandemic... we've got to openly talk about the corruption of science itself, how there has been a shutdown of scientific discussion, how you cannot talk about certain things.

Marty Makary

Natural immunity was 27 times more protective, adjusted for age, than vaccinated immunity.

Marty Makary

The therapeutics we have today have cut COVID deaths to zero in the clinical trials.

Marty Makary

We've moved to a second pandemic after COVID-19, which is a pandemic of lunacy, which is this overreaction to mild illness.

Marty Makary

We've got to get past the heavy hand of government. We've got to treat people like adults. We have to move from a culture of mandates to a culture of responsibility.

Marty Makary

As a general principle, I have no trust in people who can't change their opinion.

Peter Attia

The best investors will tell you they have very strong convictions loosely held.

Peter Attia
90% less efficient
Omicron's replication efficiency in lung cells compared to Delta Confirmed by three independent labs.
70%
Vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic COVID-19 (primary series) Observed in the UK.
35% for Pfizer, 45% for Moderna
Vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic COVID-19 (10 weeks post-booster) Observed in the UK.
0.05%
NIH research funding for COVID-19 (3 months into pandemic) Of its total budget.
27 times more protective
Natural immunity's protection against COVID-19 compared to vaccinated immunity Age-adjusted, from a large Israeli population study.
0
COVID-19 deaths in healthy children (ages 5-17, pre-vaccine) Observed in Germany over 15 months of the pandemic.
Approximately 1 in 7,600
Myocarditis incidence in young males (ages 15-25) after second mRNA vaccine dose According to a New England Journal study out of Israel.
At least 3-4 times worse
Moderna vs. Pfizer myocarditis risk Supplemental data suggests it could be 5 times worse for Moderna.
38 per million doses
ICU admissions saved in 12-17 year olds (mRNA vaccines, blended data) Based on a July Circulation paper.
1 per million doses
Deaths saved in 12-17 year olds (mRNA vaccines, blended data) Based on a July Circulation paper.
51%
Increase in self-harm hospital admissions among young women during the pandemic Reported by Marty Makary.
93%
Global population in poor countries without vaccine access According to the WHO.
10-20 million
US adults at significant risk for severe COVID-19 (no natural or vaccinated immunity) These individuals continue to show up in hospitals.
Approximately 7,000
Daily US hospitalizations for COVID-19 among those with no immunity These are often adults with risk factors like obesity.
Approximately 700
Daily US hospitalizations for COVID-19 among unboosted older people These are older individuals who have not received a booster.