#274 - Performance-enhancing drugs and hormones: risks, rewards, and broader implications for the public | Derek: More Plates, More Dates

Oct 9, 2023 Episode Page ↗
Overview

This episode features Derek from More Plates, More Dates, a fitness educator, discussing performance-enhancing drugs like growth hormone, testosterone, and SARMs. The conversation explores their use and abuse in bodybuilding, side effects, fertility, and hair loss management.

At a Glance
45 Insights
3h 14m Duration
23 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Derek's Early Interest in Weightlifting and Steroid Use

Acquiring Steroids from Underground Labs and Fertility Concerns

The Genesis of More Plates, More Dates and Derek's Expertise

Growth Hormone: Misconceptions and Basic Physiology

Exogenous Growth Hormone's Impact on Endogenous Production

Growth Hormone for Tissue Restoration and Injury Healing

Growth Hormone-Releasing Peptides (GHRPs) and GHRHs

Role of Growth Hormone in Muscle Building, Fat Loss, and Sleep

Evolution of Drug Use in Bodybuilding and Physique Changes

Causes of Protruding Abdomens in Bodybuilders

Cardiovascular Risks and Deaths in Bodybuilders

Testosterone Metabolism: DHT and Estrogen Conversion

Managing Hair Loss: Finasteride, Dutasteride, and Anti-Androgens

Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT): Use Cases and Dosing

The Role of Estrogen in Men and Aromatase Inhibitors

Other Hormones for Male Sex Hormone Replacement (Progesterone)

History and Types of Anabolic Steroids and Derivatives

Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs)

Professional Bodybuilder Regimens and Health Consequences

Challenges of Accurate Hormone Testing with Steroids

Clomid, HCG, and Enclomiphene for Fertility and Hormone Modulation

Fertility Concerns: Testosterone vs. HCG Use

BPC-157 Peptide for Injury Healing

Androgenic vs. Anabolic Activity

Androgenic refers to the masculinizing effects of a compound, while anabolic refers to its muscle-building or tissue-preserving effects. Testosterone has roughly equal anabolic and androgenic activity, while compounds like DHT are highly androgenic, and others like Primobolan are more anabolic with less androgenic impact.

Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Gonadal (HPG) Axis

This is the finely tuned system that regulates hormone production. The hypothalamus releases GnRH, stimulating the pituitary to produce LH and FSH, which then act on the testes (Leydig and Sertoli cells) to produce testosterone and support spermatogenesis. Negative feedback from androgens and estrogens regulates this axis.

5-alpha-reductase Enzyme

This enzyme converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a significantly more potent androgen. It plays a critical role in male sexual differentiation, prostate growth, and hair loss.

Aromatase Enzyme

This enzyme converts testosterone into estradiol (estrogen). It is expressed in various tissues, including adipose tissue, and plays a crucial role in regulating estrogen levels in men, which are important for cardiovascular, neurological, and bone health.

Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs)

These are compounds designed to interact with androgen receptors in a tissue-specific way, aiming for pure anabolic activity with minimal androgenic side effects. However, their anabolic ceiling is generally lower than traditional anabolic steroids, and higher doses can reduce their selectivity.

Growth Hormone-Releasing Peptides (GHRPs) and GHRHs

These are peptides that stimulate the pituitary to increase endogenous growth hormone production. GHRPs act on the ghrelin receptor (e.g., ipamorelin, MK677), while GHRHs (e.g., tesamorelin, CJC1295) act on the GHRH receptor. Combining them can have a synergistic effect.

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What is the typical dosage of testosterone prescribed for replacement therapy by physicians?

Physicians typically prescribe around 150 milligrams of testosterone cypionate per week for physiological TRT, which is significantly lower than doses used by bodybuilders.

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Can growth hormone be used to increase a child's height beyond their genetic potential?

While some literature exists on idiopathic short stature, there's no clear evidence that growth hormone can make a child significantly surpass their predetermined genetic height ceiling, especially if they don't have a diagnosed deficiency.

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What is the best proxy for measuring endogenous growth hormone production?

Serum IGF-1 is widely accepted as the best proxy for endogenous growth hormone production, as growth hormone itself is pulsatile and has a very short half-life in serum.

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Does exogenous growth hormone compromise one's ability to make endogenous growth hormone?

Yes, elevated IGF-1 levels from exogenous growth hormone create negative feedback, increasing somatostatin and suppressing the body's natural growth hormone production from the pituitary.

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What causes the protruding abdomens seen in some bodybuilders and athletes?

This phenomenon is multifactorial, primarily caused by significant distension from excessive food intake leading to gastrointestinal issues, and potentially exacerbated by chronic hyperglycemia and organomegaly from drug use.

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What are the primary hormones testosterone converts into, and why are they important?

Testosterone primarily converts into dihydrotestosterone (DHT) via 5-alpha-reductase, which is highly androgenic, and estradiol (estrogen) via aromatase, which is important for cardiovascular, neurological, and bone health in men.

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What is the current understanding of estrogen's role in men on testosterone replacement therapy?

Estrogen is crucial for men's health, including cardiovascular, neurological, and bone health. Arbitrarily crushing estradiol levels with aromatase inhibitors, based on old 'bro lore,' is now understood to be detrimental.

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What is the typical drug regimen for a top professional bodybuilder?

Professional bodybuilders are typically on anabolic steroids, including testosterone, 90-100% of the year, often escalating doses during contest prep. Testosterone serves as a base for estrogen, while other anabolic agents are added.

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How do Clomid and HCG work to modulate male hormones and fertility?

HCG mimics LH to stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, increasing testosterone and maintaining testicular function. Clomid is a SERM that tricks the hypothalamus into thinking estrogen is low, increasing GnRH, LH, and FSH, thereby boosting natural testosterone production.

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Which is better for maintaining fertility while on testosterone: HCG or Clomid?

HCG is generally considered superior because it directly stimulates the Leydig cells, maintaining intratesticular testosterone and testicular function, which is crucial for spermatogenesis, even if FSH is suppressed. Clomid perpetually inhibits estrogen activity, which can have negative side effects.

1. Educate Yourself on Health

Educate yourself at a base level to critically evaluate medical advice and ensure your providers are acting in your best interest, as this is a necessity to navigate health information.

2. Evaluate Medical Advice Critically

Be aware that proponents of certain health interventions (e.g., GH as a “fountain of youth”) may have financial incentives, so critically evaluate their claims.

3. Optimize TRT Dosing Frequency

If on Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT), inject testosterone more frequently (e.g., twice a week instead of once) to achieve more stable hormone levels, reduce aromatization spikes, and lower the overall side effect burden.

4. Prioritize Estrogen on TRT

Avoid arbitrarily crushing estradiol levels with aromatase inhibitors on TRT, as adequate estrogen is crucial for cardiovascular, neurological, and bone health.

5. Accurate Estradiol Testing

When testing estradiol, specifically request LCMS (liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry) for accuracy, as enzyme-based immunoassays can be unreliable and lead to incorrect treatment decisions.

6. Consider TRT for Primary Hypogonadism

If experiencing symptoms of low testosterone and blood work shows high LH/FSH with low total testosterone (primary hypogonadism), consider TRT after ruling out structural abnormalities.

7. Address Lifestyle for Low T

If low testosterone is accompanied by low LH/FSH (secondary hypogonadism), first address lifestyle factors such as sleep, stress, and diet before considering TRT.

8. Manage Body Fat for Hormones

Manage body fat to prevent excessive aromatization of testosterone to estrogen, as high body fat can suppress natural testosterone production.

9. Maintain Fertility on TRT

If on TRT and wishing to maintain fertility or prevent testicular atrophy, use HCG to mimic LH and stimulate testicular function.

10. HCG Dosing for Stability

Administer HCG more frequently (e.g., every other day) to maintain stable serum concentrations and avoid aggressive spikes in Leydig cell activation.

11. Exogenous T vs. Clomid

If considering testosterone optimization, exogenous testosterone may offer better mood, libido, and sleep outcomes compared to Clomid, as it avoids central estrogen inhibition.

12. Consider Progesterone for Sleep

If on TRT and experiencing sleep issues or anxiety, consider a low dose of progesterone, as it may improve sleep quality and provide anxiolytic neurosteroid metabolites.

13. GH for IGF-1 Deficiency & Sleep

If IGF-1 deficient and experiencing poor sleep, consider correcting IGF-1 levels with a minimum effective dose of GH to improve sleep quality.

14. GH Timing for Sleep

Consider taking part of your GH dose before bed, especially if aiming to enhance sleep, as exogenous GH suppresses natural output and natural GH pulses occur during deep sleep.

15. Ipamorelin for Sleep & IGF-1

Ipamorelin can enhance sleep and increase IGF-1 without significantly increasing hunger, making it a targeted option for GH-releasing peptides.

16. MK677 for Appetite Stimulation

MK677 (ibutamoran) might be useful for individuals with low appetite or suppressed appetite during recovery, but be prepared for significant and perpetual hunger.

17. GHRP-6 for Acute Appetite

GHRP-6 can be used to acutely stimulate appetite for specific situations like increasing food intake for bodybuilding.

18. Cancer Screening Before Peptides

If considering non-FDA approved growth hormone-releasing peptides, conduct thorough cancer screening to rule out existing malignancies due to potential growth-promoting effects.

19. Address Hair Loss Early

Address hair loss early to maximize chances of regrowth and prevent permanent miniaturization of follicles, as making back ground is much harder than preventing loss.

20. Topical Minoxidil First for Hair Loss

Use topical minoxidil as a first-line treatment for hair loss due to better tolerability and predictability; reserve oral minoxidil for those with weak topical response.

21. Hair Loss Treatment Beyond Growth

To effectively treat hair loss, focus on preventing further loss (e.g., via DHT inhibition) in addition to stimulating growth or transplants, as these alone don’t stop progression.

22. Explore 5-ARI Alternatives for Hair Loss

If considering hair loss treatment, explore alternatives to systemic 5-alpha reductase inhibitors (finasteride/dutasteride) due to potential irreversible sexual side effects.

23. Avoid 5-ARIs for BPH

Do not use 5-alpha reductase inhibitors (finasteride/dutasteride) for Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH), as better tools exist and there is no upside.

24. Consider Multi-pronged Hair Loss Protocol

For hair loss, consider a multi-pronged approach including reducing androgen burden, topical anti-androgens, 5-alpha reductase inhibitors (e.g., dutasteride), and potentially ketoconazole shampoo.

25. Be Aware of 5-ARI Fertility Impact

Be aware that 5-alpha reductase inhibitors (finasteride/dutasteride) reliably decrease sperm quality and count, impacting fertility.

26. BPC-157 for Minor Injuries

Consider BPC-157 for minor injuries, especially those in areas with low blood flow (e.g., tendons), due to its pro-angiogenic properties.

27. Avoid Proactive BPC-157 Use

Avoid using BPC-157 preventatively due to concerns about its pro-angiogenic properties potentially promoting cancer cell proliferation.

28. Study Bodybuilding for Fat Loss

Study bodybuilding principles for effective fat loss with maximum muscle preservation, even if not adopting their extreme lifestyles, as they have refined these techniques.

29. Share Personal Experiences

Share personal experiences and lessons learned to help others avoid similar mistakes, especially in complex areas like hormone management.

30. Mitigate Flight Clotting Risk

To mitigate clotting risk on long flights, consider using compression hose, staying well-hydrated, and maintaining leg movement/elevation.

31. Develop Jet Lag Strategy

Develop a personalized strategy to manage jet lag for immediate functionality upon arrival, as it is possible to be 100% functional even after long flights.

32. Caution with Rapid Weight Gain

Be mindful that rapid weight gain and drug use can exacerbate health issues like sleep apnea.

33. Monitor Blood Pressure with Drugs

Monitor blood pressure and recognize signs like bloody noses during intense exercise as potential issues with drug use.

34. Caution with Underground Labs

Be aware of the significant risks associated with obtaining injectable compounds from underground labs (UGLs) due to lack of sterility and quality control, which can lead to severe health issues.

35. Caution with GH for Height

Avoid using GH to unnaturally increase height in children due to unknown long-term bone health risks, such as potential for osteopenia.

36. Caution with GH for Longevity

Be wary of longevity clinics whose primary intervention is GH, as chronic supra-physiologic doses could propagate existing tumors.

37. Caution with Trenbolone Side Effects

Be aware that Trenbolone, while anabolic, has unique and severe side effects including night sweats and “Tren cough” due to its progestogenic activity.

38. Maintain Testosterone Base with Anabolics

When using other anabolic agents, maintain a testosterone base to ensure adequate estrogen production for neuroprotection and overall health, as most other anabolics do not aromatize.

39. Recognize GH Water Retention

Be aware that perceived benefits of Growth Hormone (GH) might be due to water retention (edema), not actual muscle gain.

40. GH Can Induce Insulin Resistance

Understand that GH use can induce acute insulin resistance, which can lead to diabetes at high dosages.

41. Peptides Provide Full GH Spectrum

Using peptides (GHRH/GHRPs) to stimulate endogenous GH production ensures a full spectrum of GH variants, unlike exogenous recombinant GH which provides only one variant.

42. Caution: Experimental Drug Cancer Risk

Be aware that some experimental drugs (like Carterin) may show promising metrics but have severe safety concerns (e.g., cancer in rodent studies).

43. Caution: Acromegaly & Heart Failure

Chronically elevated IGF-1 levels (as seen in acromegaly) are linked to increased cardiovascular death, specifically congestive heart failure, more than cancer.

44. Caution: Bodybuilder Organ Enlargement

Extreme bodybuilding drug use can lead to systemic organ enlargement, particularly the heart, contributing to early death.

45. Consider Nandrolone for Hair

If seeking muscle building with less hair loss risk, consider nandrolone due to its unique 5-alpha reduction to a non-androgenic metabolite in the scalp.

You get bit by the iron bug where you start to get the newbie gains and the quick progress becomes quite addicting.

Derek

If you're trying to ask the question, hey, what happens when you take growth hormone outside of its medically intended purpose... you're going to have to kind of go into bodybuilding forums.

Peter Attia

The closer you can replicate natural function, the more you will replicate natural side effect profiles, which should be nothing if you are physiologic.

Derek

The psychological stress for some people is significant and should not be overlooked by the silliness of, oh, just shave it, bro.

Peter Attia

Making back ground is way harder than preventing yourself from losing in the first place.

Derek

Testosterone is the base because it provides your estrogen base layer of neuroprotection.

Derek

Derek's Hair Loss Management Protocol

Derek
  1. Significantly reduce anabolic steroid dosage (eventually to replacement therapy levels).
  2. Introduce a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor (initially finasteride, later dutasteride 0.5 mg daily).
  3. Apply a topical experimental anti-androgen (RU-58841, though newer alternatives are on the horizon).
  4. Use ketoconazole shampoo.
150 milligrams per week
Typical physician-prescribed testosterone dose for TRT Of testosterone cypionate for physiological replacement
1,500 milligrams to 2 grams
Derek's peak anabolic exposure in early bodybuilding Combined weekly dosage of various compounds
2 to 4 IU
Derek's growth hormone dose in early bodybuilding Acutely tried up to 6 to 8 IU daily
150 bucks
Cost of 100 IUs of generic HGH from China Compared to thousands for pharmacy-grade HGH
Approximately 1%
Annual decline in total testosterone Expected post-age 30/35
Approximately 2% to 3%
Annual decline in free testosterone Expected post-age 30/35
80 to 120 milligrams per week
Common starting TRT dose For exogenous testosterone administration
Approximately 10 days
Half-life of testosterone cypionate Can vary by person and injection site
4.5 to 5 days
Half-life of testosterone enanthate Can be shorter than cypionate
7 milligrams three times a day
Natesto (nasal testosterone) dosing Intranasal administration
15% to 22%
Increase in testosterone and estrogen on finasteride/dutasteride Due to inhibition of 5-alpha reductase
70%
Systemic DHT inhibition with 5mg Proscar (finasteride) For benign prostatic hyperplasia
Approximately 375 IU
HCG dose to maintain intratesticular testosterone while suppressed Every other day, assuming full function at start
625-750 units twice a week
Typical starter HCG dose for fertility in clinics Administered for fertility purposes
50 IU
Typical recombinant FSH dose for fertility Every other day, can go up to 75 IU daily