#55 - Jocko Willink, retired Navy SEAL, Part I of II: objective, strategy & tactics, leadership, protocols, dealing with death, and applying the many lessons learned from war

May 27, 2019 Episode Page ↗
Overview

In this episode, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink discusses leadership, the critical distinction between objective, strategy, and tactics, and the vital importance of having protocols for life's challenges, from combat loss to personal setbacks.

At a Glance
62 Insights
2h 39m Duration
16 Topics
7 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Understanding Objective, Strategy, and Tactics in Leadership

The Strategic Impact of Frontline Tactical Decisions

Evolution of Military Training: From Live Fire to Force-on-Force

Humility as the Most Crucial Leadership Attribute

The Dichotomy of Humility: Balancing Confidence and Openness

Personal Journey: Joining the Navy SEALs and Facing Mortality

The Absence and Necessity of Protocols for Life's Challenges

Jocko's Protocol for Coping with Profound Personal Loss

Jocko's Protocol for Navigating Relationship Breakups

Developing Detachment and Identifying What Truly Matters in Life

Realities of SEAL Training (BUD/S) and Its Attrition Rate

Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life and Family Priorities

America's Evolving Sense of Purpose and Collective Sacrifice

The Evolution of Warfare: From World War I to the Gulf War

The Moral Obligation to Dissent Against Bad Orders

Lessons from Vietnam: The Failure of Attrition in Counterinsurgency

Objective, Strategy, and Tactics

The objective is the clearly defined goal. Strategy is the framework or scaffolding upon which tactics are built. Tactics are the specific actions taken to achieve the objective within the strategic framework. Most people jump from objective directly to tactics, missing the crucial strategic step.

Decentralized Command

A leadership model where frontline troops or subordinates understand the overall mission and strategic situation, enabling them to make independent, effective decisions in dynamic, unpredictable environments without constant oversight from central command.

Force-on-Force Training

A realistic military training method where participants engage in simulated combat against a live, maneuvering, and actively 'shooting' opposing force, using systems like simunition or laser tag to simulate real-world threats and reactions. This helps identify flaws in tactics that paper targets cannot reveal.

Humility in Leadership

The most important attribute for a leader, involving an open mind, willingness to listen, and the ability to learn from others, regardless of their position or experience. It prevents arrogance and denial, which can lead to organizational failure, as exemplified by companies like BlackBerry and Blockbuster.

Dichotomy of Leadership

The principle that nearly every human trait, including positive ones like humility or poise, can become a liability if taken to an extreme. Leaders must find a balance, knowing when to be humble and when to assert confidence or emotion.

Protocols

Pre-defined, multi-step sequences or routines for dealing with specific situations, both positive and negative. They provide a structured course of action, especially crucial during acute, high-stress moments, to prevent stagnation and guide individuals forward.

Obligation to Dissent

A moral and professional responsibility for subordinates to speak up and challenge orders or plans they believe are fundamentally flawed or will lead to negative outcomes, rather than blindly following instructions. This requires a strong relationship of trust between leaders and subordinates.

?
Why is it important for frontline troops to understand strategy, not just tactics?

If frontline troops don't understand the strategic objective, their tactical decisions can have massive negative strategic impacts, as seen in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, and they cannot effectively make decisions independently in dynamic situations.

?
How does military training prepare soldiers for the unpredictable realities of combat?

Training has evolved from using paper targets to force-on-force simulations with paint rounds or laser systems, which allow enemies to shoot back and maneuver, making tactics more realistic and preparing soldiers for the chaos of actual combat.

?
Why is humility considered the most important trait for a leader?

Humility keeps a leader's mind open to new ideas and feedback, preventing arrogance and denial, which can lead to organizational failure, as exemplified by companies like BlackBerry and Blockbuster.

?
Can a leader be too humble?

Yes, humility can be taken too far, leading to a lack of confidence, an inability to challenge bad decisions, or a disconnect from the team's struggles, requiring a balance with confidence and assertiveness.

?
How should one cope with profound personal loss, such as the death of a child?

Jocko recommends a protocol including accepting the initial tidal wave of sorrow, understanding that the intensity will gradually subside (without guilt), and eventually writing a letter to the lost loved one to express love and commit to living a beautiful life in their honor.

?
What is a key psychological insight for coping with a breakup?

The main thing to recognize is that the person who dumped you is not the idealized 'angel' or 'forever person' you believed them to be, because that person would not have ended the relationship; accepting this harsh reality helps in moving forward.

?
What is the 'protocol for when you don't know what to do' in a chaotic situation?

The protocol involves taking a step back, assessing everything happening, considering all possible maneuvers and their general outcomes, and then taking a small, non-committed, iterative step in the direction you believe is best.

?
What is the purpose of SEAL training (BUD/S)?

BUD/S aims to physically and mentally prepare candidates, screening for physical readiness and mental fortitude through intense workouts, sleep deprivation, and challenging evolutions, though it is not a perfect predictor of success as a SEAL or leader.

?
Why would a retired Navy SEAL, with a family, still be willing to return to combat?

For some, it stems from an unselfish commitment and a deep connection to the higher ideal of serving with their peers, believing it's their tactical priority to be prepared to protect their family and friends by being effective in combat.

?
What was the primary lesson learned from the Vietnam War regarding strategy?

The main lesson was the critical importance of winning over the local populace in a counterinsurgency, a strategy that was largely overlooked in favor of attrition-based metrics like body counts, which ultimately failed against a determined enemy.

1. Define Objective First

When tackling complex problems, always begin by clearly defining your objective. This crucial first step provides the foundation for developing an effective strategy and subsequent tactics, which are often overlooked.

2. Cultivate Humility as Leader

Embrace humility as the most vital leadership characteristic, as it fosters an open mind, encourages listening to diverse perspectives, and prevents the arrogance that can lead to poor decisions.

3. Question Your Own Certainty

Continuously ask yourself, ‘Am I really right?’ This practice of self-questioning keeps your mind open, allows for honest assessment of ideas, and helps avoid dogmatism in decision-making.

4. Protocol for Uncertainty

When unsure how to proceed in an unpredictable scenario, follow a protocol: step back, assess everything, consider all possibilities and their general outcomes, then take a small, non-committed, iterative step in the perceived best direction.

5. Obligation to Dissent

As a subordinate, recognize your moral obligation to speak up and voice dissent when you believe a plan is flawed or dangerous, even if it carries personal risk, to prevent negative outcomes.

6. Build Trust for Dissent

Proactively build strong, trusting relationships with superiors by consistently demonstrating support and competence. This ensures that when you need to dissent, your concerns are heard and taken seriously.

7. Establish Protocols for Crises

Develop clear, pre-defined protocols for responding to foreseeable bad events like accidents or death. These protocols guide actions and ensure effective, organized responses when chaos strikes, preventing stagnation.

8. Practice Emotional Detachment

Cultivate the ability to detach emotionally and observe situations from an outside perspective. This skill helps in discerning what truly matters, avoiding getting caught up in unimportant issues, and making better decisions.

9. Decouple Decisions from Emotion

Before making a decision, consciously step back from immediate emotions, chaos, and mayhem. This allows for greater clarity and helps you accurately identify what is truly important.

10. Prioritize Culture in Business

For business success, focus on developing the right internal culture, leadership, and human factors. These elements are more critical than metrics alone for achieving long-term, sustainable growth and positive outcomes.

11. Ensure Strategic Understanding

For decentralized command to function, leaders must ensure frontline personnel understand the higher-level strategic objectives. This empowers them to make autonomous, effective decisions in dynamic situations.

12. Communicate Strategic Mission

Leaders must clearly communicate the strategic mission to their team. A lack of this understanding can lead to poor tactical decisions and undermine overall objectives.

13. Prioritize Strategy Over Tactics

Focus on understanding the overarching strategy rather than solely seeking tactical answers. Strategy empowers good decision-making in unforeseen circumstances and allows for adaptation.

14. Anchor to Principles, Not Tactics

In evolving fields like health or nutrition, anchor your understanding to fundamental principles rather than fleeting tactical advice. This approach allows you to adapt and evolve your methods over time as new information emerges.

15. Strategic Understanding for Decisions

Cultivate a deep understanding of the strategic mission to make effective decisions during critical, split-second moments. Relying solely on tactical instructions can lead to being lost when circumstances change.

16. Recognize Tactical Actions’ Impact

Understand that even small tactical mistakes can have significant negative strategic consequences. This emphasizes the need for careful consideration and awareness at all levels of action.

17. Learn from Ground Experience

Maintain humility and actively seek knowledge and insights from those with direct, current on-the-ground experience, regardless of your own training or position. Their practical wisdom is invaluable.

18. Avoid Arrogance, Embrace Learning

Do not allow past success or long tenure to foster arrogance that prevents you from listening to new ideas or methodologies. Such arrogance typically leads to stagnation and negative outcomes.

19. Balance Humility with Confidence

While humility is crucial, avoid excessive humility that leads to passive agreement. Confidently challenge ideas you disagree with by asking for explanations, demonstrating strength without arrogance.

20. Control Emotions, Don’t Suppress

As a leader, control your emotions rather than suppressing them entirely. Showing appropriate emotion fosters connection with your team and prevents you from appearing robotic or detached.

21. Inspire Subordinate Loyalty

Great leaders inspire subordinates to not only perform well but also to actively seek ways to make their leader ’look good.’ This is achieved by acting as a supportive interface and fostering a sense of shared success.

22. Address Humility Deficit

Recognize that confident individuals who rise to leadership often struggle with a lack of humility. This makes humility a critical area for development to prevent arrogance and foster openness.

23. Cultivate Survival Mindset

Maintain a mindset that you will survive even in dire circumstances. This belief can be a necessary psychological tool for navigating extreme danger, even if it seems objectively improbable.

24. Overcome Fear of Death

To effectively perform in high-risk environments, you must overcome the fear of death. Succumbing to this fear will severely hinder your ability to do your job and make sound decisions.

25. Find Peace in Legacy

For those in high-risk professions, having children can shift the perspective on mortality from personal survival to ensuring legacy. This provides a sense of peace that allows continued dedication to duty.

26. Process Grief with Action

When facing profound loss, establish a structured protocol that includes a brief period for mourning, followed by a return to purposeful action. This prevents idle rumination and honors those lost.

27. Combat Distress with Action

When facing psychological problems or distress, take immediate, forward-moving action by following a pre-established protocol. This helps avoid stagnation and dwelling on the situation, moving you towards recovery.

28. Understand Grief’s Diminishment

When experiencing profound grief, recognize that the initial overwhelming ’tidal wave’ of sorrow will naturally subside over time. Feeling moments of relief or less pain is a normal and healthy part of processing, not a sign of being a ‘bad person.’

29. Honor Lost Ones by Living

As part of processing grief, write a letter to the deceased expressing love and commitment to living a beautiful life in their honor. Symbolically deliver it, then resolve to move forward, understanding that lingering sorrow burdens their memory.

30. Reframe Breakups Realistically

When experiencing a breakup, reframe your perception by recognizing that the person who ended the relationship is not the idealized version you held. This acceptance helps process the loss and move forward more realistically.

31. Relationship Essential/Tolerate Lists

After each relationship, update two lists: one for essential qualities in a lifelong partner and another for intolerable traits. This helps clarify your needs and boundaries for future relationships, improving self-awareness.

32. Prioritize Support Over Blame

In domestic situations, choose a supportive and collaborative approach (e.g., ‘Is there anything I can do to help?’) over immediate blame or criticism. This fosters positive communication and strengthens the relationship.

33. Conserve Energy Wisely

Consciously decide not to waste energy on minor issues that ultimately won’t matter. This allows you to focus on more significant concerns and maintain emotional equilibrium.

34. Avoid Irrelevant Negativity

Consciously disengage from trivial negative inputs, such as social media comments or rude emails, that consume mental energy without productive outcome. These distractions detract from more important activities and presence.

35. Appreciate Life as Gift

Cultivate a daily appreciation for life as a gift, especially after witnessing significant sacrifice or near-death experiences. This perspective can profoundly shift your outlook and priorities.

36. Focus on Importance, Not Trivial

Effective leaders distinguish between what is truly important and what is not, avoiding getting emotionally ‘wound up’ by trivial issues that distract from strategic goals.

37. Accept Uncontrollable Risks

After taking all possible steps to mitigate risks, accept that some outcomes remain beyond your control. Dwelling on these uncontrollable factors is unproductive and drains energy.

38. Focus on Controllable Risks

Actively mitigate all controllable risks to the best of your ability. Once done, shift your focus to managing the impact of uncontrollable factors rather than worrying about them, maintaining strategic focus.

39. Avoid Nervousness, Prevent Hesitation

Recognize that nervousness leads to hesitation and misdirected focus, which can be detrimental in critical situations. Cultivate confidence to act decisively.

40. Default to Aggressive Action

In a crisis, cultivate a confident, aggressive mindset to proactively engage threats rather than hiding. Defensive paralysis allows the adversary to gain the upper hand, leading to worse outcomes.

41. Prioritize Mission for Family

In high-stakes roles, prioritize the mission as a tactical necessity to ensure long-term strategic goals, such as personal survival and the safety of your team and family, are met.

42. Win Over the Populace

In counterinsurgency operations, prioritize winning the support and trust of the local populace. Their passive or active support is critical for success and long-term stability.

43. Separate Decision from Outcome

Understand that the quality of a decision is distinct from its outcome. A good decision can lead to a bad result, and a bad decision can lead to a good result, due to uncontrollable factors.

44. Evaluate Decisions by Context

When judging past decisions, especially those of leaders, evaluate them based on the information and context available at that specific time, rather than with the benefit of hindsight.

45. Build Trust with Unbiased Advice

To build trust with your audience, avoid endorsing products or services when you are financially compensated by the company that makes them. This ensures your recommendations are perceived as genuine and unbiased.

46. Advocate Only for Loved Products

Only advocate for products or services you genuinely love and are enthusiastic about. This authenticity is crucial for effective and trustworthy communication with your audience.

47. Adopt Subscriber Support Model

Consider a subscriber-supported model instead of ads to maintain a simple, honest relationship with your audience and ensure trust. This model keeps your incentives aligned with your listeners.

48. Provide Value Exceeding Cost

When offering a subscriber model, ensure members receive benefits that clearly exceed the value of their contribution. This fosters loyalty and a strong perceived fairness in the relationship.

49. Offer Exclusive Member Benefits

Provide exclusive content like detailed show notes, downloadable transcripts, AMA access, and special deals on genuinely loved products to incentivize listener support. This creates tangible value for subscribers.

50. Train for Real-World Chaos

Recognize that real-world situations are often chaotic and fast-paced, unlike controlled training environments. Training should prepare for imperfect conditions, rapid decision-making, and unexpected variables, not just perfect execution.

51. Anticipate Plan Disruption

Be prepared for plans to change drastically when confronted with unexpected, high-impact events. Initial strategies often fail under pressure, requiring adaptability.

52. Train with Active Opposition

To prepare effectively for real-world conflict, incorporate training scenarios where the ’enemy’ can shoot back and maneuver. Passive targets do not simulate critical aspects of actual combat.

53. Adapt Tactics to Feedback

When realistic training (e.g., simunition) exposes flaws in existing tactics, acknowledge the feedback and adapt your methods rather than dismissing the realism of the training. This drives continuous improvement.

54. Implement High-Consequence Training

Design training with significant, immediate consequences for failure (e.g., carrying a ‘fallen’ comrade). This fosters a deeper sense of realism, responsibility, and urgency among participants.

55. Acknowledge Training Limitations

Understand that even the most realistic training cannot fully replicate the psychological impact of actual mortal danger. Individuals may take different risks when their lives are not truly at stake.

56. Build Confidence Gradually

For high-stakes roles, a gradual escalation of exposure to challenging situations, with initial successes, can serve as a crucial confidence builder and help individuals acclimate to pressure.

57. Implement ‘Cover and Move’

In situations of conflict or danger, always apply the ‘cover and move’ principle: one person provides suppressive fire while the other moves. This ensures mutual protection and prevents simultaneous exposure.

58. Evaluate Actions Beyond Outcome

Do not equate a successful outcome with a correct decision. An action might ‘get away with something’ without being the optimal or right approach, especially if it violated sound principles.

59. Tailor Advice to Audience

Adapt your message and advice based on the specific needs and current state of your audience. For those lacking confidence, prioritize instilling self-assurance over emphasizing humility.

60. Learn from Experience

Through repeated experience with difficult situations, you can develop effective protocols and strategies that, while not immediately obvious, become clear over time and can guide others.

61. Invest in Dedicated Team

For content creators or businesses, invest in a dedicated team to help curate, learn, and share information. This ensures high-quality output and manages the overwhelming volume of material in any given space.

62. Develop Protocols for Good Events

Create protocols not only for bad events but also for good ones (e.g., marriage, new house). These guide behavior, manage expectations, and ensure positive outcomes and continuity in life’s transitions.

Humility is the most important attribute or characteristic for a leader to have.

Jocko Willink

If I'm telling you that I know something a hundred percent, you should listen to me because I don't play around with that statement.

Jocko Willink

The person that dumped me, the person that I missed, the person that I thought I was going to spend, that person doesn't exist. It's not that person for sure. Cause that person wouldn't have dumped you.

Jocko Willink

When you get good at jujitsu, you realize that there's some things that don't matter.

Jocko Willink

You can make a great decision and things can go horribly wrong and you can make a bad decision and things can be fine.

Jocko Willink

If you're a subordinate and you have an obligation, and in some cases, a moral obligation to stand up and say, hey, I don't know. I don't think this is the best plan.

Jocko Willink

Protocol for Coping with the Loss of a Child (or anyone close to you)

Jocko Willink
  1. Allow yourself to be hit by the tidal wave of sorrow, understanding it will eventually subside.
  2. Recognize that diminishing sorrow is not a sign of being a 'bad person,' but a natural part of processing and moving on.
  3. When ready, write a letter to the lost loved one, expressing love, cherishing memories, and committing to living a beautiful life to honor them.
  4. Take the letter to their burial site, read it to them, and then walk away, moving forward with your life.

Protocol for Getting Dumped

Jocko Willink
  1. Recognize that the person who dumped you is not the idealized 'angel' or 'forever person' you believed them to be, because that person would not have ended the relationship.
  2. Understand that this realization, though difficult, is a more accurate and ultimately healthier reality to face than believing your 'forever person' simply doesn't want you.

Protocol for When You Don't Know What to Do (Tactical)

Jocko Willink
  1. Take a step back.
  2. Assess everything that is happening around you.
  3. Think about your possible maneuvers and the general outcomes of those decisions.
  4. Take a small, non-committed, iterative step in the direction you believe is best, without full commitment until more is known.
18, 19, 20 years old
Age of soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison Approximate ages of young soldiers involved in detainee treatment.
March 19th, 2003
Date of Iraq invasion Coincided with Peter Attia's 30th birthday.
16 years
Time since Iraq invasion (as of podcast recording) From 2003 to 2019.
400,000
Civilian population of Ramadi Civilians living in the city during the Iraq War.
1,000 to 5,000
Insurgent population in Ramadi Approximate number of insurgents in Ramadi at certain times.
14 months
Duration National Guard unit fought in Ramadi before SEALs arrived Part-time soldiers with extensive combat experience.
80% or 90%
BlackBerry's peak market share High market share before its decline.
174 pounds
Jocko Willink's weight entering SEAL training His weight upon checking into BUD/S.
185 pounds
Jocko Willink's weight graduating SEAL training His weight after completing BUD/S.
26 weeks
Basic SEAL training (BUD/S) duration Approximately six months.
70% or 80%
SEAL training attrition rate Mostly occurs in the beginning phases of training.
32 minutes
First phase BUD/S run criteria (4 miles, soft sand, boots) Weekly timed evolution.
30 minutes
Second phase BUD/S run criteria (4 miles, soft sand, boots) Weekly timed evolution.
28 minutes
Third phase BUD/S run criteria (4 miles, soft sand, boots) Weekly timed evolution, equivalent to a 7-minute mile on sand with boots after sleep deprivation.
60,000
World War I Battle of the Somme casualties in first 24 hours Casualties on both sides.
10,000
American casualties during D-Day invasion Within the first four days.
About 20 years
Time between World War I and World War II From 1918 to 1939.
72 hours
First Gulf War ground fighting duration The duration of the ground combat phase.
173 to 1
I-Drang Valley kill count ratio (enemy to American) Ratio of enemy killed to American killed, used as a metric in Vietnam.