#56 - Jocko Willink, retired Navy SEAL, Part II of II: Sleep, fasting, raising kids, discipline, taking ownership, and the impact of war
Jocko, a former SEAL commander, discusses his sleep, diet, and workout routines, along with his approach to family leadership and instilling values. He shares insights on discipline, when to quit, and working with diverse mindsets, reflecting on his combat experiences.
Deep Dive Analysis
16 Topic Outline
Jocko's 9/11 Experience and Immediate Reaction
Structure of SEAL Teams and Jocko's Service
Comparison of Afghanistan and Iraq Wars
Differences Between US and Russian Military Morale
Public Perception of Vietnam vs. Iraq/Afghanistan Vets
Civilian Welcome in Iraq and ISIS's Strategic Error
Future of Warfare: Drones and Robots
Raising Kids and Instilling Values
Jocko's Sleep Habits and Philosophy
Distinguishing Quitting from Strategic Adaptation
Free Will, Mindset, and Changing People
Working with People with Opposing Mindsets
Jocko's Indulgences: Food and Alcohol
Fasting and Meal Timing
Olivia's Q&A: Discipline, Workouts, Nickname, Favorite Book
Impact of War on Jocko and Gratitude for Service
3 Key Concepts
Decentralized Command
This leadership principle involves letting team members or family members contribute to the plan and forge their own ideas, rather than barking orders. When people are involved in creating the plan, they commit to it and execute it with more dedication because it's 'their' plan.
Extreme Ownership
A leadership philosophy where a leader takes ownership of all problems and failures within their team, even when others make excuses. By owning these issues, the leader disarms blame and encourages team members to also take ownership and find solutions.
ISIS Strategic Error
ISIS's mistake was transitioning from an asymmetrical insurgent force to a conventional army with vehicles, flags, and uniforms. This allowed coalition forces to fight them like a nation-state, leading to their significant defeat.
14 Questions Answered
Jocko was in college at the University of San Diego on 9/11. He initially thought the first plane hitting the tower was an accident, but as soon as the second plane hit, he immediately knew it was an attack.
An actual SEAL team is comprised of multiple platoons, which generally operate independently or in small groups of one to three platoons. The odd-numbered SEAL teams are on the West coast, and the even-numbered teams are on the East coast.
In urban combat like Ramadi (Iraq), things unfold rapidly, requiring quick decisions. In Afghanistan, especially in non-urban areas, distances are further, allowing slightly more time to think, though both presented brutal challenges.
During Vietnam, people hated the war and often directed that anger at returning soldiers. For Iraq and Afghanistan, there's been a shift in the American psyche to distinguish between the war itself and the soldiers fighting it, recognizing that the war is not on the soldiers' shoulders.
ISIS's strategic error was becoming a conventional army, adopting vehicles, flags, and uniforms. This allowed coalition forces to fight them as a nation-state, leading to the killing of approximately 50,000 ISIS fighters.
The future of warfare will heavily involve technology, including drones and potentially robots, fighting each other. However, if these technologies are defeated, human beings will still be on the ground fighting.
Jocko wrote children's books to convey timeless principles and values. He allows his children to discover these truths for themselves rather than imposing them, similar to how he applies decentralized command in leadership.
Jocko typically goes to bed at 11 PM and wakes up at 4:30 AM, often without an alarm. He believes people should sleep as much as they need, acknowledging that individual sleep requirements can vary, possibly due to genetics.
Jocko explains that one might 'give up' or 'quit' on a specific tactical plan that isn't working, but never on the overarching strategic goal. Adaptations are made to the plan to continue moving towards the desired outcome.
Jocko is agnostic on free will, acknowledging that people are largely 'the way they are' due to genetics and experience. This perspective helps him understand and work with people who may not share his mindset, focusing on influencing rather than imposing change.
Jocko applies extreme ownership: when someone makes an excuse, he owns it as his fault (e.g., 'I didn't get you the resources') and works to fix the underlying issue. This approach encourages others to take ownership and ultimately leads to those unwilling to adapt leaving the organization.
Jocko does not drink alcohol; he stopped after retiring from the Navy. His biggest food indulgences include dark chocolate (72% for pleasure, 82-85% for satisfaction) and mint chocolate chip milkshakes, though he created a supplement equivalent to the latter.
Upon joining the SEAL teams, Jocko observed that the most effective SEALs were highly disciplined, arriving early, maintaining their gear, and putting in extra effort. He realized that discipline led to better performance, which in turn granted more freedom, a stark contrast to his less-disciplined youth.
Jocko's best advice is to have discipline, as it ultimately leads to more freedom. He illustrates this by saying that if you want to get up early, you set your alarm and get out of bed when it goes off.
36 Actionable Insights
1. Discipline Leads to Freedom
Observe highly effective individuals to understand that discipline, manifested through habits like arriving early, maintaining gear, and consistent effort, leads to improved performance and ultimately grants greater freedom in all aspects of life.
2. Adapt Tactics, Preserve Strategy
In tactical situations, be willing to abandon a failing plan or path. However, never give up on your overarching strategic goal, continuously adapting your approach until it is achieved.
3. Own Excuses to Foster Ownership
When team members make excuses, take ownership of their stated problems (e.g., lack of funding, resources, or personnel) as your own fault. This disarming approach encourages them to eventually take ownership themselves.
4. Lead Family with Decentralized Command
Apply decentralized command principles to leading your family: communicate the goal, then allow family members to contribute to forming the plan. This fosters commitment and respect, unlike barking orders.
5. Influence, Don’t Impose Change
Acknowledge that people are fundamentally who they are and can only truly change themselves. As a leader, you can influence and offer course correction, but you cannot impose transformation.
6. Take Ownership for Kids’ Failures
When your children make mistakes, take ownership yourself by framing their failure as your own inability to impress upon them the importance of the task. This disarms them and encourages them to take ownership too.
7. Cultivate Empathy for Differing Work Ethic
Reflecting on concepts like free will can foster greater understanding and empathy for individuals who do not share your work ethic or values, helping to dissolve resentment towards differing approaches.
8. Reject “It’s Different For You” Mindset
Avoid the mindset that things are easier for others because they are ‘different’ or ‘superhuman.’ Recognize that everyone faces challenges and this perspective can be a self-limiting belief.
9. Prioritize Adequate Sleep
Sleep is crucial for cognitive function; lack of it can significantly impair decision-making. Therefore, prioritize getting as much sleep as your body needs to maintain optimal performance.
10. Acknowledge Individual Sleep Needs
Recognize that individuals may have different sleep requirements, as evidenced by varied sleep patterns observed even within a single family.
11. Simple Early Wake-Up Rule
To consistently wake up early, set your alarm and, when it goes off, immediately get out of bed without hesitation.
12. Optimal Power Nap Protocol
For an optimal power nap, elevate your feet above your heart and set an alarm for precisely eight minutes (10-12 minutes can lead to grogginess). This short nap can make you feel fully rested.
13. Use Bed Cooling for Better Sleep
Utilize a bed cooling system, such as a ChiliPad, to mitigate night sweats and potentially reduce the occurrence of vivid nightmares, leading to more comfortable sleep.
14. Jocko’s Sleep Schedule
Jocko typically goes to bed at 11 PM and wakes up at 4:30 AM, setting an alarm to avoid anxiety, though he often wakes naturally between 4 and 4:30 AM.
15. Jocko’s Pre-Sleep Routine
Jocko’s pre-sleep routine involves returning from Jiu Jitsu around 7:30-8 PM, eating his biggest meal after that, doing some work, spending time with kids, then more work, and brushing his teeth around 10:30-10:40 PM before bed.
16. Practice Intermittent Eating
Jocko typically eats between zero and two meals a day, often skipping breakfast and focusing on lunch and/or dinner.
17. Jocko’s Fasting Protocol
Jocko practices intermittent fasting by skipping a full day of eating once or twice a week, and also undertakes a 72-hour fast once every quarter.
18. Aim for Three-Day Fasting Tipping Point
Consider aiming for at least a three-day fast, as this duration is suggested to be a ‘real tipping point’ for significant benefits, particularly in terms of glycogen release.
19. Embrace Fasting’s Empowering Challenge
Undertaking a fast, even if challenging, is an empowering experience that connects you to ancestral capabilities, proving your resilience and capacity to achieve difficult feats.
20. Adopt a “No Factor” Fasting Mindset
Approach fasting with a ’no factor’ mindset, reminding yourself that humans are capable of going extended periods without food. This perspective helps overcome mental barriers for shorter fasts, such as 24 or 36 hours.
21. Enhance Fasting Sleep with Supplements
To improve sleep quality during fasting, consider using supplements like Kirk Parsley’s and phosphatidylserine, which can help achieve deeper and more restful sleep.
22. Replace Unhealthy Indulgences
Create or find healthier alternatives to your favorite unhealthy indulgences. Jocko replaced mint chocolate chip milkshakes with a custom supplement, eliminating the desire for the less healthy option.
23. Find Your Satiating Dark Chocolate
When indulging in dark chocolate, aim for a higher percentage (e.g., 80-85%) where it tastes good but leaves you satisfied after a few squares, rather than lower percentages (e.g., 72%) that can lead to overconsumption.
24. Utilize Allulose as a Sweetener
Consider using allulose as a sweetener, as it offers a similar taste and mouthfeel to sugar but is minimally absorbed and excreted by the kidneys. It also has the unique property of potentially lowering blood sugar.
25. Consider Abstaining from Alcohol
Jocko decided to stop drinking alcohol after retiring from the Navy, noting that it was a natural shift when his social environment changed, and he now maintains a policy of not drinking at all.
26. Assess Technology’s Problem-Solving
Before adopting new technology, critically ask what specific problem it solves. This helps determine if it provides a genuine advantage or is merely a drawback in certain applications.
27. Teach Timeless Values Early
To instill important values in children, create or use resources that present clear, simple, and timeless lessons, making them easy for kids to understand and internalize.
28. Allow Kids Self-Discovery
When teaching values, avoid imposing them too forcefully. Instead, allow children to discover principles and truths for themselves to foster genuine understanding and commitment.
29. Apologize for Parental Mistakes
Be good at acknowledging and apologizing for your mistakes to your children. This models humility and helps them understand that everyone, including parents, makes errors.
30. Embrace Mistakes Without Ego
Don’t hide your mistakes; instead, acknowledge them, even with humor, and show that you have no ego when it comes to admitting errors.
31. Jocko’s Diverse Workout Routine
Incorporate a diverse range of exercises into your workouts, including bodyweight movements like push-ups, pull-ups, and burpees, as well as weight training with deadlifts, kettlebells, and various squats, plus cardio like sprinting, rowing, and air cycling.
32. Maximize Value from Challenging Team Members
If you cannot remove underperforming team members, focus on maximizing the value they can add. Take ownership of their excuses and work to fix the underlying issues, rather than simply dismissing them.
33. Maneuver Against Larger Competitors
When facing larger, less mobile competitors, avoid wars of attrition. Instead, focus on being more maneuverable and identifying their weaknesses to attack them strategically.
34. Support Valued Content Directly
If you find value in content like this podcast, consider supporting it directly through a monthly subscription to ensure its continued production and gain access to exclusive benefits like show notes, transcripts, AMAs, and product deals.
35. Anticipate Regret of Quitting
When facing the urge to quit in a moment of weakness, anticipate the future regret you will feel for giving up, using this foresight to push through the challenge.
36. Cultivate Gratitude for Experience
Embrace gratitude for challenging experiences and the people you encounter, as these can be profoundly humbling and transformative, making you a better person by witnessing real sacrifice and dedication.
6 Key Quotes
When you're that big, guess what? You're not mobile anymore.
Jocko
If you want to keep doing it, why would you stop doing it?
Jocko
People are the way they are.
Jocko
You changed you.
Jocko
Have discipline because then you'll end up with more freedom.
Jocko
I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to serve.
Jocko
4 Protocols
Jocko's Daily Sleep Routine
Jocko- Finish Jiu Jitsu around 7:30 or 8 PM.
- Eat biggest meal sometime after Jiu Jitsu.
- Do some work or hang out with kids.
- Brush teeth around 10:30 or 10:40 PM.
- Go to bed at 11 PM.
- Wake up at 4:30 AM (with or without an alarm).
Jocko's Nap Routine
Jocko- Elevate feet above heart.
- Set an alarm for 8 minutes (maximum 12 minutes).
Jocko's Workout Routine
Jocko- Perform common exercises: push-ups, pull-ups, dips.
- Use weights: kettlebells, deadlifts, various types of squats (overhead, front, back).
- Include sprints.
- Utilize a rowing machine.
- Utilize an air cycle.
- Perform burpees.
Extreme Ownership in Leadership/Parenting
Jocko- When a team member or child makes an excuse for a failure, the leader/parent takes ownership of the problem.
- Acknowledge the excuse as a failure in leadership (e.g., 'That's my fault, I didn't provide enough resources').
- Ask what can be done to get the necessary resources or support.
- Work to fix the underlying issue that led to the excuse.
- This approach encourages others to take ownership and commit to solutions.