#76 - Kyle Kingsbury: Finding meaning, depression, and psychedelics
Kyle Kingsbury, retired UFC fighter and Onnit's Director of Human Optimization, discusses his battle with depression and suicidal thoughts, his past PED use, and how psychedelic plant medicines became a turning point for emotional health and breaking generational trauma.
Deep Dive Analysis
14 Topic Outline
Early Life, Sports, and Academic Struggles
College Football and Performance Enhancing Drugs
Experiences with Growth Hormone and Drug Testing
Post-Football Depression and Suicide Attempt
Transition to Mixed Martial Arts and Early Success
Lessons from First MMA Loss and Training at AKA
Introduction to Breathwork and Plant Medicines
Transformative Ayahuasca Experiences and Self-Discovery
Understanding Overt vs. Covert Depression in Men
Ayahuasca's Role in Healing Generational Trauma
Impact of Personal Growth on Fighting Career and Identity
Parenting Philosophy and Breaking Cycles of Trauma
Reconnecting with Ancestral Roots and Psychedelics for Youth
Forgiveness and Compassion in Family Relationships
5 Key Concepts
Roid Rage
The concept of 'roid rage' suggests that anabolic steroid use causes aggression. However, Kyle Kingsbury observed that individuals who exhibited aggression while on anabolics were often already aggressive without them, implying that steroids amplify pre-existing tendencies rather than creating them. This perspective suggests that underlying emotional issues are the primary driver, not the substance itself.
Overt vs. Covert Depression
Overt depression is the commonly recognized form, characterized by symptoms like sadness, lack of motivation, and withdrawal. Covert depression, as described by Terrence Real, is the same underlying pain manifesting through behaviors like addiction, anger, aggression, or workaholism, often seen disproportionately in men as a way to numb discomfort rather than express traditional depressive symptoms.
Adaptive vs. Maladaptive Behaviors
Behaviors developed in childhood to cope with difficult situations (e.g., building a tough exterior to deal with family conflict) can be adaptive, helping a person survive. However, these same behaviors can become maladaptive later in life, hindering personal growth and perpetuating cycles of pain if the underlying issues are not addressed.
Plant Medicine Intention & Surrender
When working with plant medicines like psilocybin or ayahuasca, intention plays a crucial role in guiding the experience. Equally important is the ability to surrender control during the ceremony, allowing the medicine to reveal insights and facilitate healing without resistance, as trying to rationalize or beg for a way out can prolong difficult experiences.
The Infinite Onion
This metaphor describes the continuous process of self-discovery and healing facilitated by plant medicines. Each ceremony or experience peels back another layer of personal issues, childhood trauma, or programmed behaviors, revealing deeper insights and opportunities for growth, with new layers always available to be explored.
7 Questions Answered
Kyle found high school academics didn't resonate with him, partly because he was a disruptive class clown seeking attention and control. He later found subjects like psychology and sociology in college more engaging, realizing their real-world applicability.
Kyle began using testosterone (Sustanon 250) in his senior year of high school to gain size for college football, then continued with testosterone (testosterone cypionate at 600mg/week) and Deca-Durabolin (400mg/week) throughout junior college and ASU. He also used growth hormone (4 IUs/day) for recovery, noting its significant benefit for injury healing.
Kyle used a device called 'The Whizzinator,' which involved synthetic urine and a fake penis, to pass drug tests. NCAA testing procedures at the time were less stringent than professional sports, often involving only a quick glance rather than full visual observation.
After realizing his NFL aspirations were unlikely and quitting school, Kyle experienced deep depression, fueled by a lack of meaning, excessive drug and alcohol use, and a sense of not being loved. This culminated in an overdose and a close call with suicide, which he had contemplated since childhood.
After his football career ended, Kyle sought an outlet for camaraderie, physical interaction, and structured training. He started training in MMA for fitness and to learn new skills, eventually accepting an offer to fight professionally after winning his first two amateur fights in under 30 seconds.
Plant medicines became a turning point for Kyle, helping him quiet his 'monkey mind,' find inner peace, and uncover deep-seated emotional issues from childhood. They provided a lasting sense of peace and direction, shifting his perspective on consciousness and spirituality, and helping him address destructive patterns of drug and alcohol use.
Kyle is committed to breaking the cycle of generational pain and trauma with his son, Bear. He aims to provide opportunities for his son to explore interests like martial arts, and considers incorporating ancestral rites of passage, potentially including plant medicines like ayahuasca under proper guidance, to help him connect with what truly matters.
33 Actionable Insights
1. Seek Help for Self-Harm
If currently experiencing any thoughts of self-harm or suicide, it is imperative to seek out medical help immediately.
2. Break Generational Pain Cycles
Recognize and actively work to break cycles of generational pain and trauma, aiming to provide a different experience for your children and foster a legacy of emotional health.
3. Forgive for Self-Liberation
Understand that forgiveness is primarily a gift to oneself, releasing the burden of anger, pain, and resentment towards others, which can profoundly affect one’s well-being and perception of the world.
4. Deep Self-Reflection with Ayahuasca
Engage with plant medicines like ayahuasca under proper guidance and setting to facilitate deep self-reflection, uncover childhood issues, recognize destructive patterns, and foster lasting shifts in self-perception and behavior. (Note: The substances discussed are illegal and carry physical, physiological, psychological, and legal risks; this information is purely for informational purposes.)
5. Approach Psychedelics with Intention
If considering psychedelics, approach them with clear intention, respect, and reverence for the plants, ensuring a safe and appropriate environment, as this can facilitate deep self-discovery and lasting inner peace. (Note: The substances discussed are illegal and carry physical, physiological, psychological, and legal risks; this information is purely for informational purposes.)
6. Practice Surrender in Challenges
When facing overwhelming or emotionally unbearable experiences, practice surrendering to the moment and letting go of the desire to control or change it, as this can be a pathway to acceptance and eventual relief.
7. Address Underlying Emotional Pain
Recognize that depression can stem from a feeling of hopelessness and unaddressed childhood trauma, and actively seek ways to process and heal these underlying emotional pains.
8. Utilize Breath Work for Calm
Practice slow breathing techniques (e.g., 2:1 exhale to inhale, 4-7-8, or 10-10-10) upon waking and before bed to quiet negative ‘monkey mind’ chatter, control anxiety, and improve sleep.
9. Distance from Negative Environments
After experiencing a low point, intentionally create distance from detrimental social environments (e.g., party atmosphere) and focus on setting new, meaningful goals to foster personal growth and shift perspective.
10. Prioritize Sleep & Nutrition
To achieve physical gains and improve well-being, prioritize getting adequate sleep and eating well, focusing on sufficient protein and calories.
11. Seek Curated, Detailed Information
Recognize the overwhelming volume of information available and prioritize seeking out highly curated and detailed resources, such as comprehensive show notes, to make better decisions and improve life quality.
12. Cultivate Compassion for Others
Develop compassion for others by recognizing that everyone navigates their own unique life path and learns lessons at their own pace, and it’s not one’s place to judge or dictate their journey.
13. Nurture Confidence & Connection
In parenting, foster confidence (e.g., through martial arts), allow children to pursue their own interests, and consider reconnecting them to ancestral roots through experiences like wilderness survival camps or guided plant medicine rites of passage with trusted elders.
14. Help Kids Unplug & Gain Perspective
Encourage children, especially those heavily engaged with screens, to unplug and engage in experiences that help them see the ‘big picture’ and reconnect with what truly matters beyond immediate digital gratification.
15. Vet Psychedelic Practitioners Thoroughly
When considering plant medicine ceremonies, thoroughly vet practitioners to ensure they are experienced and reputable (‘black belts’), as improper guidance can lead to lasting psychological damage.
16. Explore Fish Oil for Brain Health
Consider exploring holistic supplementation, such as fish oil, for brain health, as suggested by a psychiatrist as an alternative to pharmaceutical interventions.
17. Find Healthy Physical Outlets
Engage in physical activities like martial arts to provide camaraderie, physical interaction, continuous learning, and a healthy outlet for emotional release and stress.
18. Mindful & Technical Training
When training in high-impact sports, adopt a mindful and technical approach to sparring, focusing on skill development rather than constantly going ‘full-go’ to minimize injury risk and promote longevity.
19. Prioritize Injury Avoidance
Recognize that injury avoidance is a critical, underappreciated aspect of professional sports, and focus on preservation, especially during the season, to extend one’s career.
20. Realistic Career Goal Assessment
Realistically assess the likelihood of achieving top-tier career goals (e.g., NFL) and be prepared to pivot or adjust expectations if the path becomes unlikely, prioritizing playing at the highest possible level if that’s the core motivation.
21. Cultivate Coachability for Learning
Develop a coachable mindset, being open to absorbing as much knowledge and guidance as possible from experienced mentors to rapidly acquire and improve new skills.
22. Pursue Resonant Academic Subjects
Focus on academic subjects like psychology, sociology, and communication that feel personally relevant and applicable to life, as these can provide lasting value and engagement.
23. Value Practical Hands-On Skills
Appreciate and learn practical skills like working with your hands (e.g., car maintenance, construction) as they can be enjoyable, well-paying, and provide useful life knowledge.
24. Recognize Value of Separation
Understand that sometimes separation in relationships, even divorce, can lead to a deeper sense of peace and improved well-being for all involved if communication is consistently dysfunctional.
25. Address Root Causes of Anxiety
Be aware that anti-anxiety medications provide temporary relief, but the underlying, unworked-through issues will resurface once the medication is stopped, highlighting the need to address root causes.
26. Be Discerning with Psychiatric Meds
Approach psychiatric medications with discernment, considering personal and family experiences, and communicate openly with your psychiatrist if a prescribed medication significantly alters your personality or emotional range in undesirable ways.
27. Substances Amplify Existing Traits
Understand that substances like anabolic steroids or alcohol tend to amplify pre-existing personality traits (e.g., anger, kindness) rather than creating new ones, much like money amplifies a person’s inherent nature.
28. Incorporate Ritual for Intention
Engage in rituals like traditional sweat lodges before significant endeavors (e.g., fight camp) to set intentions and after for healing and reflection, fostering mental and emotional well-being.
29. Understand Covert Depression
Read ‘I Don’t Want to Talk About It’ by Terrence Real to understand the distinction between overt depression (classic symptoms) and covert depression, which manifests as addiction, anger, aggression, or workaholism, all stemming from underlying pain.
30. Read ‘How to Change Your Mind’
Read Michael Pollan’s ‘How to Change Your Mind’ to gain a better understanding of psychedelics and their potential, as it offers a well-researched and compelling perspective on the topic.
31. Read Llewellyn’s Anabolics
Consult Dr. William Llewellyn’s ‘Anabolics’ for a deep, unemotional dive into the pharmacology and chemistry of anabolic substances, offering comprehensive information without editorializing.
32. Research Substances on Erowid.org
Utilize erowid.org to research the pharmacology, chemistry, legality, and user trip reports of various substances, including plant medicines, for informational purposes.
33. Support Podcast for Exclusive Content
Consider supporting the podcast directly by signing up for a monthly subscription to gain full access to exclusive show notes, participate in AMA episodes, and get deals on products the host loves.
5 Key Quotes
If you squeeze an orange, what do you get? Orange juice. If somebody squeezes you, what do you get? Well, it's whatever's going to come out of you.
Kyle Kingsbury (attributing Wayne Dyer)
When someone's depressed, they see through their lens, they don't see through anyone else's lens. It's just like, this is water.
Kyle Kingsbury
I just wanted to destroy something beautiful.
Kyle Kingsbury (quoting Fight Club)
Forgiveness has very little to do with the person I'm forgiving. It has everything to do with taking that fucking weighted vest off of me because I'm held down by that.
Kyle Kingsbury
If you think you're enlightened, spend a week with your family.
Kyle Kingsbury (attributing Ram Dass)
1 Protocols
Breathwork for Mind Control and Sleep
Kyle Kingsbury- Practice various forms of slow breathing, such as a two-to-one exhale to inhale ratio (e.g., four seconds in, seven seconds hold, eight seconds out).
- Alternatively, practice 10-10-10 breathing (10 seconds in, 10 seconds hold, 10 seconds out).
- Perform these exercises right upon waking and right before going to bed.