Esther Perel: Relationships and How They Shape Us (Re-Release) #256

Apr 9, 2022 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Guest Esther Perel, a leading thinker on modern relationships, discusses how the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. She explores the evolution of marriage, the unprecedented expectations placed on partners, and offers practical strategies for improving communication, reframing criticism, and fostering connection through rituals and self-change.

At a Glance
54 Insights
1h 24m Duration
15 Topics
6 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

The Relational Self: Knowing Ourselves Through Others

Why Relationships Are Both Bliss and Grief

Rewriting Relationship Stories in Therapy

The Dynamic Nature of Relationships and Personal Growth

The Value of Couples Therapy and Shared Experiences

Harmony, Disharmony, and Repair: The Rhythm of Relationships

Societal Pressure for Perfect Relationships and Its Impact

Historical Transformation of Marriage and Expectations

Cultural Context and Family Influence on Relationship Dynamics

Rituals for Relationship Upkeep: The Tea Ritual

Side-by-Side vs. Face-to-Face Intimacy

Approaching Difficult Conversations with a 'Yes' Mindset

Relational Dynamics in the Workplace: 'How's Work' Podcast

The Rise of Emotional Vocabulary in Business

Practical Tips for Improving Relationships

Relational Self

The concept that one's identity and self-knowledge are not separate from relationships, but rather are shaped and understood through interactions with others. The self is continuously influenced by how others perceive us and how we engage with them.

Narrative Thinking in Relationships

The idea that every relationship is a story with an origin, beginning, expectations, and a plot. People often get stuck in their current story, and therapy aims to help them rewrite it by challenging assumptions and understanding the co-creation of the narrative.

Harmony, Disharmony, and Repair

This describes the natural, continuous rhythm of a relationship, characterized by cycles of connection, disconnection, and subsequent reconnection. It suggests that relationships are not static states of 'good' or 'bad,' but rather dynamic processes of ebb and flow.

Identity Economy of Relationships

A modern shift in relationship expectations where individuals seek to become the 'best version of myself' through their intimate partnerships. This is a significant departure from historical reasons for marriage, which focused on survival, economic support, or communal needs.

Autonomy vs. Loyalty Framework

A framework for understanding how individuals are raised, either emphasizing self-reliance and independence (autonomy) or interdependence and obligation to others (loyalty). These foundational values deeply influence how individuals approach and behave within their relationships.

Relational Intelligence

The understanding and skill in navigating the complex dynamics of human interaction. Once considered a 'soft skill,' it is now recognized as a core competency crucial for personal well-being and professional success, especially in evolving work environments.

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How do we truly get to know ourselves?

We only truly get to know ourselves through our interactions with others, as our self-perception is influenced by how others see us and how we engage in relationships.

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Why do so many people struggle with relationships despite being wired for connection?

Relationships, while a source of bliss, also involve dependence and interaction with others, which can lead to grief and stress, especially with unprecedented modern expectations placed on a single partner.

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How can one change a toxic story within a relationship?

Therapy often helps people rewrite their relationship stories by challenging assumptions and recognizing that a relationship is a co-creation, allowing for new actions and experiences.

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Is couples therapy necessary or advisable for all relationships, even healthy ones?

While formal therapy isn't always necessary, engaging in 'therapeutic processes' through podcasts, books, or conversations can be highly beneficial for all relationships, fostering more conscious and improved connections.

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How have marriage and intimate relationships changed over the last century?

Expectations have shifted from survival and communal support to seeking identity, self-actualization, and having one person meet all needs, which were once provided by an entire village.

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What is the significance of 'monogamy' today compared to the past?

Historically, monogamy meant one person for life, often from a young age; today, it often means one person at a time, with marriage occurring later in life after individuals are more 'ready-made'.

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What are the common underlying themes behind impasses or conflicts in relationships?

Most impasses in conversations or relationships primarily revolve around themes of power and control, care and closeness, and recognition and integrity (respect).

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Why is relational intelligence becoming a core skill in the workplace?

The world of emotion has increasingly entered business, with discussions about authenticity, belonging, and psychological safety. Strong relationships at work are now seen as crucial for employee retention, happiness, and overall business success.

1. Change Self to Change Others

If you want to see change in others, focus on changing your own behavior and narrative first, as this dynamic interplay will influence their story as well.

2. Prioritize Play and Joy

Do not defer play, pleasure, joy, and fun; integrate them into your life, especially during crises, as they are fundamental to humanity and well-being.

3. Approach Difficult Talks with “Yes”

Before a difficult conversation, check your internal state; aim to approach it with a “state of yes” (openness, acceptance) rather than a “state of no” (attack, rejection), which influences your physiology and outcome.

4. Offer to Simply Listen

In conversations, especially challenging ones, offer to simply listen without needing to agree, giving the other person’s point of view space and validity.

5. Implement a Daily Tea Ritual

Establish a daily “tea ritual” (or similar dedicated time) for at least five minutes with your partner, without distractions like phones, to consistently connect and deepen intimacy.

6. Uncover Wishes Behind Criticism

When receiving criticism, try to identify the underlying wish or unmet need behind it, rather than just reacting defensively.

7. Respond Constructively to Criticism

Instead of defensiveness, respond to criticism by acknowledging the reminder, expressing gratitude for high expectations, and inviting accountability, which can reframe the conversation positively.

8. Know Self Through Others

Understand that self-knowledge is gained through interactions with others, not in isolation, as your perception of self is influenced by how others see you and how you interact.

9. Co-Create Your Relationship

Recognize that relationships are a dynamic co-creation; you shape the relationship, and in turn, the relationship shapes who you become.

10. Embrace Relational Self

Adopt a relational perspective on self-identity, understanding that who you are is always a combination of how you see yourself and how others see you, and how you impact each other.

11. Observe Your Own Actions

Cultivate awareness of your own actions and how they trigger reactions in your partner, rather than solely focusing on their reactions to you.

12. Accept Relationship Rhythm

Understand that relationships naturally cycle through harmony, disharmony, and repair, or connection, disconnection, and reconnection; this rhythm is normal and not indicative of failure.

13. Reinvent Your Relationship Story

Actively reinvent your relationship by consciously changing your responses and communication patterns; if your partner says A, try a different response than your usual B to alter the story.

14. Gain Agency Through Story Change

Understand that by changing the narrative of your relationship, you can change your experience and regain a sense of agency over your life.

15. Understand Self for Better Relationships

Work on understanding yourself better, as this self-awareness will enable you to show up in your relationships more meaningfully and with less personal baggage.

16. Challenge Relationship Assumptions

Identify and challenge the underlying assumptions (e.g., “you don’t care about me,” “it will never be good enough”) that keep you stuck in a toxic relationship story.

17. Recognize Your Relationship Role

Be aware that you might be playing a character in your partner’s story that you don’t recognize as yourself, as relationships involve entering each other’s narratives.

18. Acknowledge Reciprocal Influence

Understand that your behavior and self-perception are reciprocally influenced by others, meaning your actions affect them, and their reactions in turn affect you.

19. Embrace Relational Identity Fluidity

Recognize that you are not a static “one person” but are shaped by each relationship, bringing out different aspects of yourself depending on the dynamic.

20. Seek Relationship Improvement Broadly

Engage in “relationship therapy” through various accessible means like listening to podcasts, reading books, or discussing with friends, not just formal therapy sessions.

21. Abandon Perfect Relationship Ideal

Let go of the expectation of a “perfect relationship,” as such a thing does not exist, reducing pressure and fostering acceptance.

22. Resist Societal Perfection Pressure

Resist the societal pressure to always be perfect and “shine” in your relationships; acknowledge areas for improvement without labeling yourself or your relationship as “good” or “bad.”

23. Redefine Relationship Success

Reframe your understanding of relationship success; longevity alone isn’t the marker, and having the option to leave for good reasons can be commendable.

24. Reflect on Upbringing’s Influence

Reflect on whether you were raised for autonomy (self-reliance) or loyalty (interdependence) and how this foundational outlook influences your relationships and expectations.

25. Identify Core Value Differences

Recognize that differing core values or upbringings (e.g., prioritizing family loyalty vs. individual happiness) can cause friction in relationships, and understanding these differences is key.

26. Clarify Commitment Values

Understand that the non-negotiability of commitment is a cultural value; clarify with your partner whether commitment is a fixed or re-evaluable aspect of your relationship.

27. Consider Cultural Context

When interacting with others, especially partners, consider their unique cultural context and avoid assuming more similarity than actually exists, even if backgrounds seem similar.

28. Reflect on Partner Choice

Reflect on the unconscious reasons you chose your partner and what you gain from the relationship that you might not have owned in yourself.

29. Learn from Past Challenges

View past relationship challenges as opportunities to grow closer, understand yourselves better, and recognize how your upbringing influences your current relational behavior.

30. Create Relationship Boundaries

Create clear boundaries around dedicated relationship time, signaling that attention is solely on each other and the value of your connection, not on tasks or external demands.

31. Prioritize Consistent Relationship Upkeep

Recognize that your relationship requires consistent upkeep, protection from external pressures, and symbolic rituals performed routinely to maintain its meaning and vitality.

32. Ensure Undivided Attention in Rituals

When engaging in relationship rituals, ensure you are in a different setting than work and free from phone distractions, making your partner feel important and appreciated for who they are.

33. Focus on Being, Not Doing

During dedicated connection time, focus on checking in with your partner about “who they are” and “how they are feeling,” rather than “what they have done,” to foster nurturing attention.

34. Cultivate Relationship Vitality

Implement rituals to bring energy, vitality, and aliveness into your relationship, moving beyond mere survival and functioning towards thriving together.

35. Explore Diverse Connection Rituals

Experiment with various connection rituals like walks, shared baths, or massages; the specific activity matters less than the shared intention to check in and prioritize each other.

36. Prioritize Eye Contact and Touch

Incorporate eye contact and physical touch into your daily interactions and rituals, as these are crucial for connection, soothing, and grounding, especially when touch is limited to those in your household.

37. Connect Through Nature

Engage in activities connected to nature, such as gardening or walking together, as slowing down and connecting with the elements can foster deeper connection.

38. Vary Interaction Styles

Experiment with both “face-to-face” (e.g., tea ritual) and “side-by-side” (e.g., walking, driving, cooking) interaction styles to foster different kinds of intimacy and deeper conversations.

39. Utilize Side-by-Side Intimacy

Engage in side-by-side activities like driving or lying in bed with loved ones, as this less intense posture can provide freedom for deeper, more intimate conversations.

40. Cook Together for Deep Talks

Cook with your children or partner, as the semi-distracted environment can create a relaxed setting that encourages deep conversations to emerge.

41. Expand Conversation Vocabulary

Listen to diverse and complex conversations (e.g., podcasts) to gain new vocabulary and frameworks for addressing challenging topics in your own relationships.

42. Prioritize Listening in Difficult Talks

When initiating challenging conversations, remember that the essence lies more in how you listen than in what you say, so focus on creating space for the other person’s perspective.

43. Open Difficult Talks with Care

Begin difficult conversations by acknowledging the discomfort of the topic but emphasizing its importance to you and the relationship, e.g., “Something we haven’t talked about, but our relationship matters too much to avoid it.”

44. Identify Core Conversation Themes

Before a difficult conversation, identify the underlying core themes at play (e.g., trust, power, care, recognition, integrity) as most impasses stem from these fundamental issues.

45. Incorporate Humor into Difficulties

Remember to allow for humor even during challenging conversations or crises, as it can be a necessary element for humanity and connection amidst tragedy.

46. Recognize Unofficial Work Resume

Be aware that you bring your “unofficial resume” (your relationship history and personal dynamics) to the workplace, which influences interactions and performance.

47. Address Personal Needs at Work

Learn how to communicate personal needs or challenges (e.g., caregiving responsibilities) in the workplace in a way that fosters understanding rather than resentment or misinterpretation.

48. Develop Relational Intelligence at Work

Prioritize developing relational intelligence in the workplace, as it is now considered a core skill essential for business success and team cohesion.

49. Prioritize Healthy Work Relationships

Understand that the quality of your relationships at work significantly impacts your overall well-being and sleep, making them crucial to prioritize.

50. Rewrite Relationship Stories

If your relationship story has become toxic or you feel stuck, consider seeking therapy to help rewrite that narrative and overcome limiting assumptions.

51. Find Reassurance in Shared Struggles

Seek out shared experiences or stories of others’ relationship challenges (e.g., through podcasts like “Where Should We Begin”) to find reassurance and open avenues for change in your own life.

52. Learn from Others’ Stories

Gain insight into your own relationship dynamics by observing and relating to the stories of other couples, which provides a helpful distance for reflection.

53. Share Relationship Challenges

Be vulnerable and share your relationship challenges and what you’ve found useful with others, fostering mutual support and making the world a better place.

54. Connect to Nature, Beauty, Sensuality

Actively connect with nature, beauty, joy, laughter, and sensuality to maintain your humanity and well-being, even amidst life’s difficulties.

You only know yourself through your interactions with others.

Esther Perel

It is the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives.

Esther Perel

We are not just one person. We may have core characteristics, but we are shaped by the relationship in which we are. We make the relationship and the relationship makes us.

Esther Perel

Often behind the criticism, there is a wish.

Esther Perel

Today we ask one person in the West to give us what once an entire village used to provide.

Esther Perel

Longevity has never been the marker of success. They lasted because people had no option.

Esther Perel

My sexuality, as in myself, my identity as a woman has never belonged to me. First, it belonged to India. Then it belonged to my parents. Then it belonged to my Christian school. And then it belonged to my husband. And this time, I want to define it myself.

Esther Perel (quoting a client)

Don't ever leave play, pleasure, joy, fun for the end. They are incredibly important experiences of life in the midst of crisis.

Esther Perel

Relationship Upkeep Ritual (Tea Ritual)

Rangan Chatterjee (described his practice, affirmed by Esther Perel)
  1. Commit to at least five minutes daily (often more, but five is the minimum commitment).
  2. Sit together, typically when children are in bed.
  3. Share a cup of tea or engage in another chosen activity.
  4. Catch up with each other without laptops, phones, or other distractions.
  5. Focus attention on each other, emphasizing who each person is rather than tasks.
  6. Engage in eye contact and touch to foster connection and appreciation.

Approaching Difficult Conversations

Esther Perel
  1. Check your own body and physiology (e.g., heart rate, sweaty palms) to ensure you are approaching with a 'state of yes' (openness) rather than a 'state of no' (attack).
  2. Initiate the conversation by acknowledging its challenging nature and the importance of the relationship (e.g., 'something we've never really talked about that I'd love to bring up... our relationship matters too much for me to avoid it').
  3. Prioritize listening over talking, giving the other person's point of view space and validity without necessarily agreeing.
  4. Identify the underlying themes of the conflict (e.g., power, control, care, closeness, recognition, integrity) rather than focusing solely on specific issues.
  5. Allow for humor to be present, recognizing its necessity even in the midst of crisis or tragedy.
12 weeks
Esther Perel's confinement duration In Woodstock, New York, since March.
almost 20 years
Dr. Chatterjee's medical experience As a doctor.
about 13 years
Dr. Chatterjee's marriage duration Duration of his marriage.
10 years old
Dr. Chatterjee's son's age Just turned 10.
7 years old
Dr. Chatterjee's daughter's age Seven years old.
18 or 19
Dr. Chatterjee's age when his dad got seriously unwell His father had to retire due to lupus and kidney failure.
7 years ago
Years since Dr. Chatterjee's father died His father died seven years prior to the conversation.
10 days
Time Dr. Chatterjee's father spent in Calcutta to get married He had never met his mother before.
200 miles away
Distance to Dr. Chatterjee's only nearby uncle During his upbringing in the UK.
two or three at best
Typical number of children in the West Contrasts with historical needs for many children.
late teens
Average age of marriage in the past Contrasts with today's late twenties, early thirties.
60 years
Desired marriage longevity today Aspiration for 'bliss' in modern relationships, longer than historical durations.