Understanding & Healing the Mind | Dr. Karl Deisseroth

Episode 26 Jun 28, 2021 Episode Page ↗
Overview

Dr. Karl Deisseroth, MD, PhD, a clinical psychiatrist and Stanford scientist, discusses his work understanding and treating mental disorders, including his pioneering optogenetics technology. He shares insights from his clinical practice, his lab's mission to find cures, and his new book "Projections: A Story of Emotions".

At a Glance
11 Insights
2h Duration
19 Topics
8 Concepts

Deep Dive Analysis

Distinction Between Neurology and Psychiatry

Challenges and Future of Mental Health Diagnosis

Effective Current Psychiatric Treatments

The Concept of a 'Cure' for Mental Illness

Optogenetics: Algae Proteins for Brain Control

Restoring Vision with Channelrhodopsins

Dr. Deisseroth's Journey to Psychiatry

Vagus Nerve Stimulation for Depression

Advancing Optogenetics for Clinical Application

Patient Dialogue and Non-Verbal Cues in Psychiatry

Precision vs. Broadness in Psychiatric Treatments

Psychiatrists' Perspective on Prescribed Medications

Brain-Machine Interfaces and Future Therapies

Understanding and Managing ADHD

Dr. Deisseroth's Work-Life Balance Strategies

CLARITY: A New Tool for Brain Exploration

The Human Brain and Lessons from Animal Models

Psychedelic Medicine: Potential and Risks

MDMA and Trauma Treatment

Psychiatry vs. Neurology

Psychiatry focuses on disorders where there are no measurable physical abnormalities, relying primarily on words and rating scales to understand and treat conditions. Neurology, in contrast, deals with disorders that have visible physical causes or measurable markers like strokes or seizures.

Positive vs. Negative Symptoms

In psychiatry, particularly for conditions like schizophrenia, 'positive symptoms' refer to the addition of something not previously present, such as hallucinations or paranoia. 'Negative symptoms' refer to the removal or absence of something, like social withdrawal or thought blocking.

Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT)

ECT is an extremely effective treatment for severe, treatment-resistant depression. It involves inducing a brain-wide seizure under safe, controlled conditions, though the precise mechanism by which it relieves depression is not yet fully understood.

Channelrhodopsins (Optogenetics)

These are proteins originating from single-celled green algae that, when struck by light, open a pore in cell membranes, allowing charged particles to rush in. When genetically introduced into specific neurons, they enable precise, real-time control of neuronal activity (turning cells on or off) using light, forming the basis of optogenetics.

Adeno-Associated Viruses (AAVs)

AAVs are engineered viral vectors, derived from common cold viruses, that are made safe and well-tolerated for gene delivery. They are used to carry genes, such as those for channelrhodopsins, into specific cells in the body or brain for therapeutic or research purposes.

Hydrogel Tissue Chemistry (CLARITY)

CLARITY is a technique that creates a clear, jello-like gel within all cells of a tissue, anchoring important molecules like proteins and RNAs in their original locations. This process allows for the removal of light-blocking substances, making the tissue (like a brain) completely transparent for deep imaging and structural analysis without physical dissection.

Dissociation

Dissociation is a psychological state characterized by a separation of the sense of self from the body, often experienced after trauma or in conditions like PTSD. Individuals in this state may detect stimuli but do not emotionally ascribe them to their own personal experience.

Psychedelics (Mechanism)

Psychedelics appear to increase the brain's willingness to entertain 'unlikely hypotheses' or alternative ways of constructing reality. This may lower the threshold for novel or 'wrong' models to enter conscious awareness, potentially helping depressed patients break free from rigid, hopeless thought patterns by opening new perspectives.

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What is the fundamental difference between neurology and psychiatry?

Neurology deals with brain disorders that have measurable physical abnormalities (like strokes or seizures), while psychiatry focuses on disorders where such physical markers are not yet detectable, relying instead on verbal reports and symptom rating scales.

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Will there ever be objective, quantitative tests like blood tests or brain scans for mental illnesses such as depression or schizophrenia?

Yes, it is believed that quantitative tests will eventually exist because psychiatric diseases are fundamentally physical, involving circuits and connections in the brain that are not working typically. Efforts are already underway with EEG-based brain rhythm analysis.

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What is the biggest challenge currently facing the treatment of mental illness?

A significant challenge is the strong stigma associated with psychiatric disease, which often prevents patients from seeking help, leading to delayed treatment and potentially worsening symptoms like anxiety converting to depression.

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What are some early warning signs that someone might be developing depression?

One classic early warning sign is 'early morning awakening,' where individuals start waking up inexplicably earlier than usual (e.g., 2 AM, 3 AM, or 5 AM) and are unable to fall back asleep. Family members may also notice changes before the patient does.

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Are there any truly effective treatments in psychiatry, or is it mostly guesswork?

Yes, there are many effective treatments. Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) can be very potent for panic disorder in a short series of sessions. Antipsychotic medications can effectively clear positive symptoms of schizophrenia, and electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is extraordinarily effective for treatment-resistant depression.

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How do channelrhodopsins, derived from algae, help scientists understand and potentially treat brain disorders?

Channelrhodopsins are proteins that respond to light by opening pores in cell membranes, allowing ions to flow. By introducing the gene for these proteins into specific neurons, scientists can use light to precisely turn those neurons on or off in real-time, providing a tool (optogenetics) to causally understand which circuits control sensation, cognition, and action.

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Can optogenetics be used to restore vision in blind individuals?

Yes, channelrhodopsins have been successfully applied in a human patient with retinal degeneration. By introducing channelrhodopsins into the eye, light sensitivity was conferred, allowing a previously blind person to perceive light.

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Why is vagus nerve stimulation used to treat depression, and how effective is it?

Vagus nerve stimulation (VNS) is used primarily because the vagus nerve is accessible for placing an electrical device without directly entering the brain. While FDA-approved for depression, its population-level effect sizes are generally small, though some patients experience significant benefit.

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How do psychiatrists assess a patient's internal state beyond their verbal reports?

Psychiatrists look for 'joint statistics' – many things at once, including body language, eye contact (or its absence, as in autism), and even subtle changes in the tone and rhythm of a patient's voice, especially when they know the patient well.

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Why do some of the most effective psychiatric medications also have the most severe side effects?

Many highly effective psychiatric drugs, like the antipsychotic clozapine, are not highly specific and act on many different receptors throughout the brain and body. This broad action can lead to significant therapeutic effects but also numerous off-target side effects.

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How does Dr. Deisseroth manage his demanding career as a clinician, scientist, and family man?

He prioritizes carving out at least an hour of protected, undistracted time each day for deep thinking, often involving internal verbal self-conversation. He also embraces that different life stages require different modes of work and focuses on being disciplined in protecting these thinking times.

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What is CLARITY, and how does it help understand the brain?

CLARITY is a hydrogel tissue chemistry technique that builds a clear, jello-like gel within all cells of a tissue, anchoring important molecules in place. This allows the removal of light-blocking substances, making the brain completely transparent for deep imaging and detailed structural analysis without physical dissection.

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How do psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin potentially work to treat depression?

Psychedelics may increase the brain's willingness to accept 'unlikely hypotheses' or alternative models of reality, potentially helping depressed patients, who often feel stuck in hopeless thought patterns, to perceive new possibilities and future progressions.

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How might MDMA (ecstasy) be useful for treating trauma like PTSD?

MDMA can induce an acute state of extreme connectedness and openness. The brain 'learns' from this experience, and even after the drug wears off, patients may retain a new understanding of what is possible in terms of connection and overcoming barriers, which can be integrated into therapy.

1. Protect Daily Focused Thinking

Dedicate at least an hour each day to focused, undistracted thinking, sitting still and allowing thoughts to structure themselves. This practice, similar to meditation but focused on reasoning, helps in deep abstract thought and problem-solving.

2. Eliminate Distractions During Focus

When engaging in deep thinking or writing, discipline yourself to protect that time by eliminating distractions like phones and notifications. Use tools like a ‘focus mode’ on devices to create a pure, distraction-free environment for mental work.

3. Utilize CBT for Panic Disorder

If experiencing panic disorder, consider Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) to identify early signs of panic attacks and the underlying cognitions. This therapy can train individuals to derail panic attacks effectively, often within 6-12 sessions.

4. Monitor for Early Depression Signs

Be aware of early morning awakening (waking up inexplicably early, like 2-5 AM, and being unable to fall back asleep) as a potential early warning sign of depression. Family members can also observe changes in behavior before the individual does, offering crucial early detection.

5. Optimize Daily Hydration & Electrolytes

Ensure proper hydration and electrolyte balance by dissolving one packet of Element in 16-32 ounces of water first thing in the morning and during physical exercise. This supports optimal brain and body function and prevents diminished cognitive and physical performance from dehydration.

6. Support Nutritional Needs with Supplements

Consider taking an all-in-one vitamin, mineral, and probiotic drink daily to cover basic nutritional needs and make up for deficiencies. Probiotics are vital for microbiome health, which interacts with the immune system, brain (mood), and other biological systems; Vitamin D3 and K2 are also essential for brain, body, and cardiovascular health.

7. Use NSDR for Energy Restoration

Engage in Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) or Yoga Nidra sessions, even for short durations like 10 minutes, to greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy. Apps like Waking Up offer various programs for different durations and types of meditation.

8. Seek Specificity in Understanding Emotions

When discussing feelings, move beyond jargon like ‘depressed’ to specific, unambiguous real-world examples, such as how much one looks forward to the future or plans for tomorrow. This approach helps in understanding actual internal states more precisely.

9. Cultivate Empathy for Patients

For clinicians, sampling prescribed medications (under safe conditions) can provide a deeper understanding of the patient experience, including side effects like sleep or libido disruption. This direct experience can significantly enhance empathy and clinical decision-making.

10. Embrace Creative Friction with Hope

When encountering difficulty or ‘friction’ in creative or problem-solving tasks, acknowledge the aversive feeling but maintain hope that a solution exists. This mindset can provide a ‘propulsive force forward’ to persist until the right solution is found.

11. Understand Psychedelic Learning Mechanism

Recognize that the potential therapeutic benefit of psychedelics (like MDMA) for conditions such as trauma and depression may stem from the brain’s ability to learn from the altered experiences. These experiences can reveal new possibilities and connections, which are then integrated after the drug’s acute effects wear off.

In psychiatry, we have a harder job, I think. We use words. We have rating scales for symptoms... And ultimately, that's what psychiatry is built around. It's an odd situation because we've got the most complex, beautiful, mysterious, incredibly engineered object in the universe. And yet all we have are words to find our way in.

Dr. Karl Deisseroth

I never really know what's going on inside the mind of the other person. I get, I get some feedback, I get words, I get behaviors, I get actions, but I never really know. And as you said, at the very beginning of the question, you know, often we don't even have the words and the insight to even understand what's going on in our own mind.

Dr. Karl Deisseroth

The channelopsins and their related technologies stand to transform the way that we treat psychiatric illness and various disorders of movement and perception.

Andrew Huberman

The most effective antidepressants, some of the most effective antipsychotics are the ones that are, have the most side effects.

Dr. Karl Deisseroth

I think the brain learns from those experiences. That's, that's the way I see it. And, and so for example, people on who've taken MDMA, they will, as you say, they'll have, they'll be the acute phase of being, you know, on the, the drug and experiencing the, this extreme connectedness with other people, for example. And then the, the drug wears off and, but the brain learned from that experience.

Dr. Karl Deisseroth

Vagus Nerve Stimulation (VNS) Adjustment Protocol

Dr. Karl Deisseroth
  1. Engage in a psychiatric interview to elicit the patient's internal states, including hope, energy level, sleep, and overall mood over the past month.
  2. Based on the patient's symptom report and clinical assessment, decide if an adjustment to the current VNS dose is necessary.
  3. Using a radio frequency controller, gradually increase the intensity of the vagus nerve stimulation in real-time during the office visit.
  4. Continuously monitor the patient for side effects (e.g., changes in breathing, swallowing, or voice) to ensure the new stimulation dose remains safe and tolerable.
  5. Set the new, safe dose, and the patient returns home. Follow up after approximately one month to assess the therapeutic effects of the adjusted dose over time.
1850s-1860s
Period when light-driven algae behavior was first observed By botanist Andrei Fomenzin, a foundational observation for channelrhodopsins.
17 years
Approximate years since channelrhodopsins were first used in neurons Starting in 2004.
2004
Year channelrhodopsins were first introduced into neurons in a dish The initial step in developing optogenetics.
2007
Year channelrhodopsins were first used in behaving mice Demonstrating real-time behavioral control.
4-5 years
Approximate years to establish basic optogenetics principles (light/gene delivery) Between 2004 and 2009.
10 years
Approximate duration of clinical development for optogenetics to restore human vision From explanted human retina work to first living patient application.
5
Number of Dr. Deisseroth's children Mentioned in the context of balancing career and family.
More than 70%
Percentage of trauma survivors who experience dissociation Highlights the commonality of this psychological state.